So... PKers don't want people to have safe-time for grinding because they will run out of people to PK?... Why else would you fight a suggestion that doesn't negativly effect your grinding? In fact it helps everyone, doesn't it?

We talk about the same Arguments for Agris Fever accumulation as for Marni's Realm, they already exist for Agris Fever for similar reasons, why is it such a big Problem for Marni's Realm? Both Systems could accumulate and be used whenever the Player has time, Gaming has changed over the years and QoL has been more important than ever. 

I appreciate theese Systems and i am not in Zones with Marni's Realm, but i have friends trying out the game, or other people that get killed in Low Gear places or read in Discord etc. 

And regarding your "Fairy tale":

Do you really think there are no tagged 280+AP alts farming Skillpoints in Pollys Forest or other low-ap zones?

Or Speed-Charackters Tagged(e.g Valk as example) and speed-farming lower zones because they can 1hit the mobs, lets say Blood Wolves for pot Pieces, they will 1 shot any new player?

This is not a Fairy Tale, but rather occuring to people, and since some early Grind-Zones are really contested, a noob could just find another solution and accumulate 3hrs and enjoy a 3hr gameplay on his grind spot in a week. 

Again, this may not be trivial, nor really affect people living in end-game, but it could hugely benefit the new Adventurers first grind sessions and people that cant play every day or rely on Marni's Realm. For daily grinders and active players this would have 0 effect. Its a QoL for new players and people that play more casually. 

I would really appreciate an objective conversation with facts or objective drawbacks or concerns. 

I'll try.  I am on the side of being against your proposition.  First let's establish some baseline premises and objective facts. 

BDO is -- at baseline -- an MMORPG.  An MMORPG is a game that features -- to varying degrees -- Interactions between players.

Open world engagements have been -- since day 1 -- a core and main way players interact with each other.

Interactions are either a) Friendly in nature, or b) Non-friendly in nature.  This point is not a "well, it's more A than B" claim, a simple statement of objective fact.  These interactions can result in things like Diplomacy, Conversation, Banter, mutual PVP, or non-mutual PVP (PK).

As for your plight that "high geared players PK low geared" -- This results in a hefty karma penalty for the PK-er.  In BDO, the bigger the gear-gap, the bigger the karma penalty.  A player that is constantly getting farmed with low gear will ALWAYS be on the upside since, the PK-er will eventually go Red and will face harsh penalties, such as inability to enter towns without being attacked by guards, being permanently flagged for PVP so anyone can kill them at any time (no safe zone for red players other than personal residences), dying while Red can result in Jail or Crystal Loss -- Crystal Loss also opening the door to Gear Degradation (imagine a PEN with high Caphra's levels degrading to a TET with low Caphra's).

My point in the above is to illustarate that while --yes, PK can be toxic -- There are systems in check to prevent / minimize this from happening.  Furthermore, players who are being PK'd and farmed in the Open world have the upper-hand in these scenarios because the attacker will be punished while the attacked loses absolutely nothing of significance.

Players who are being PK'd in the Open World have MANY avenues to avoid these situations these days.  And may I add that these situations are FAR AND FEW nowadays.  It's lesser and lesser that Open world enagements happen now and this is BAD for the game, as a whole.  I'll get to that in a minute.  There are MANY ways to avoid OWPVP in BDO nowadays.

- Channel Swap Cooldown reduced to 10 minutes.

- Home Channels allow zero cooldown channel swaps.

- Marni's Realm guarantees 1 hour of uninterrupted grind per day in the best rotations of the best spots.

- Level 49 prevents being PK'd, so lifeskillers can lifeskill in peace.

- Things like Arena of Solare remove PVPers from the OW.

- Season Servers are PVP-free.  And this is where players in Naru and Tuvala will be -- SERVERS WHERE PVP IS DISBALED

- I can probably think of more.

There are simply so many ways to avoid unwanted PVP in BDO now, so your complaint about being PK'd is 100% beyond me.  You stated a "high geared player PK-ing a player in Naru or Tuvala" and that made me go like "wait.....what? Aren't those newbies on Season Server?"

The reason that dampened OW engagements is BAD for this MMORPG is because it reduces the amount of player interaction between players, making the game feel like a solo player experience, reduces the "risk vs reward" aspect of OW grind zones (IE: The best spots/rotations will be contested), reduces the importance and significance of gear-gains and progress (don't need gear to defend yourself because no one is around), reduces players talking to each other, working out rotations, and using social skills, and makes the game feel "dead".  All these are objectively BAD for an MMORPG -- Remember, BDO is an MMO at it's core, not solo.

BDO is largely solo with the only player-to-player interactions being Node Wars, Guild Activities, and OW engagments -- be it via Friendly or Non-friendly means -- and this game seems to be more solo as time goes on.  I've been here for over 5 years and have seen the many changes.  BDO OW is almost lifeless these days as compared to before, and this is because there's so many ways players can avoid each other now. 

So many viable grind zones, for all gear levels, now --- I remember when there were only TWO viable grind zones.  Sausan's and Pirate's.  You wouldn't survive one week in that version of BDO.

Marni's Realm.  Home Channels.  Increased Karma Penalties.  So many more.  We need as much MEANINGFUL player interaction in the open world as we can get as this makes the game more alive, exciting, and impactful -- while, of course, giving options to avoid it if one so chooses.  We have that -- I've listed SO MANY ways to avoid OW interactions with others in this MMO.  This suggestion of yours would only DECREASE meaningful OW interactions, and I cannot support that.  "MEANING" is a tough word to decribe in an MMO, but to me, "MEANINGFUL-NESS" is so important to an MMO's success and longevity.  We sink so many hours into our characters, for many people, lots of IRL money too.  This gives a huge boost in meaning, but when you remove other people from the equation and make the game more solo, that meaning fades away quickly because we play an MMORPG and an MMORPG isn't an MMORPG without it being Massive, Multiplayer, Online, and Role-Playing.

Edited for spelling.

First of all i want to thank you for your great and constructive Concerns  and clear Arguments.

I see that there is a big gap between PVP Arguments and PVE Arguments. 

Sadly new Players dont know any of theese mechanics at this point of the game, neither of Karma Bombing, my suggestion was directed to ease their entry into the game and help casual players a bit more. (since most other mechanics do this already, Agris, double sing ins on weekends, and lots more.)

Also it will also take a new Player to get killed what, atleast 10 to 15 times from the same player to have any effect? (negative Karma).

This would require the new player to focus on that player and let him get killed for 45 minutes without getting frustrated. (if u say 3minutes for respawn/walking back/get killed again). 

As a new Player they rarely enjoy unfair and impossible pvp to get killed and rather avoid grinding and switch to lifeskill etc. (which has a huge and friendly community) 

Now a big concern is also open world content(PVE/PVP), a Server can hold i would say 2-4 ppl per Server each Zone due to density/respawn/size. 

As you already mentioned, u can avoid PVP by swapping servers (which a majority do, atleast in sub 260 AP Zones), People dont even ask for dfs, they save some time and just swap servers (decreasing player interactions and seeing other players, making Immersion Open-World/MMO almost non-existent).

I think this is a great part that can be improved, and i bet PVP People also appreciate the World feeling more alive. (maybe better Monster Zones and more focus on buffing/adding Arsha Servers with additional Drop Rate as Benfit?) 

@PVP people, i bet u got ideas for this, pls share. 

Personally i would love if they would rework Monster Zones so that atleast 4-6 ppl could farm there with their own rotation or actually form a party or groups. (Currently when i see another player close to my roation i just swap server, i dont even interact with them and i see other atleast few other people doing this too.) 

So i really think PVP Opposition and PVE could make some real good suggestion if we put our minds together and suggest a few changes without emotional involvements.

An MMORPG was always towards player interaction, but it was restricted to death, except PVP. 

Many restrictions are there for a reason and im not completely against it, but i just wanna show a few as a reminder. 

Theese are just things i am not used of an MMO that are reducing Immersion and Open World to me: 

(I dont say to remove them, they are just here to give a quick view, why ppl have constant fear of losing even more immersion)

-Party or Groups are rare occurance and non-existent for early game (pre 200hrs), i would say first time a player gets involved in party is at Mirumok.  (Remember this is the Time a player decides if the game is good/worth)

-Usual MMORPG Player Interactions as Trading, Adventuring, Dungeons are also non-existent or end-game content (Dark Rifts forced solo; Trading is AFK, P2P Trading is completely disabled (i know, RMT/Gold Sellers).   >>Maybe there is a way to enable this with daily limit, without giving RMT a chance, maybe friends can verify their connection via the BDO-App and Bluetooth and lock it by Location and IP to their OTP so VPN etc. cant be abused, this atleast allow relatives and friends to trade together? <<

-It is impossible for 2 of the 3 best Horses to learn "Two-Seater" (Allows taking another player as Passenger, why would u disable this? People in guilds with good horses cant give low/new players a ride)

-Party Range is a bit short (need to stay close together)

-Most Monser Zones are only able to hold 2-3 ppl per Server (depending on gear and zones)- This feels already like u need your own Server or Instance and thus players feel invaded in their space, if u come close. 

For me a few easy fixes to add some more Immersion and MMO feeling would be to: 

- Increase Monster Zones:  Density/Respawn/Size to hold more players.

- Add more "events" to Monster Zones, like horde from Bloodwolves, Statues from Basilisk

-Summoning mechanics like Sherekhan(night) that would spawn a few waves of strong mobs for energy that would be a challenge for people. e.g. Consume 50 energy to spawn 5 minutes of Monsters

- Add Two Seater to every Horse as availalble skill.

-Add a few (non-high-end) maybe (weekly/daily-)Dungeons or that are rather quick and dont require endgame gear. 

- Trading: add "precious trade boxes" If the wagon holds this item(s), it will trigger random events, spawning mobs/small bosses(depending on value of cargo) during transport that will try to rob the caravan and people have to protect it and keep it alive. 

People will need to add their own "Trade item"inside the Cargo to join the party/event.  If Caravan makes it with 80% health u get 80% value of your trade item.  (This would be a cool idea to get trading back to life and enable more group content)  

Theese are only some quick thought that could benefit many People and greatly improve immersion in my opinion. 

"Baby seal clubbing" argument incoming, and a real intention to ignore those who would be negatively impacted (pvpve players) in such a small answer. That's constructive.

Thanks for suggesting I did not bring facts nor objective drawbacks or concerns. 

Agris has this accumulation system... But Agris does not interactions between players completely. It makes a whole difference, and your answer proves that you're only considering one side of the situation.

Wanna talk about QoL? BDO already made many steps in this direction, for a long time now. But some players always ignore the past, come here and say : "you could add these QoL, gaming has changed...".

Players want to test the game? Cool, there are season servers. So they can witness how much of a jerk a player can get in a pure pve setting too : platoon in Polly for the 5k weekly quest. Everyone's sharing quietly until a guy comes and ks everyone, refusing to get in the platoon because "it's faster alone"... In these moments, really, the pk option would be useful.

And fairy tale, yes. Not about the fact that pk may be misused, but fairy tale about players being unable to quietly progress because they are always tracked down by some overgeared players roaming in beginner's areas.

"always" is keyword. 

Many ways to avoid these situations, even a new player will barely be unconvenienced by that. 

And finally, for active players, it removes more players from the owpvp settings. If players can't use the hour every day, allowing them to accumulate will remove them more from the owpvp settings in the long run.

BDO is one of the last games with such a kind of owpvp, Marni was a good answer to find a balance between owpvp and guaranteed progress, but adding ways to accumulate time would go too far, to my opinion. 

Thanks for your reply. 

Babby Clubbing, as u try to talk down on his point is not necessary a bad Argument and i actually agree with it big time.

Its not good for a Playerbase if u screw over new players as a standard procedure. There are tons of MMO's out there and a Publisher will comepete about the availlable Player-"Market". 

People will quit all the time and some return, we also need to get new players if we want to have some playerbase in a few years.

Black Desert has a big Playerbase because it has many Options for Players, if they are tired of grinding they can also go Lifeskill-Route or gamble the Market like its the Wallstreet. 

It is already hard for new Players to get into BDO with all MMO-Knowledge beeing useless, if they also get pk'ed its enough to drive people away.  My Suggestion wont solve this, it would make their experience a bit less likely to be shredded by a way better geared player that tries to hit their Trash/hr Target.

Now let me reply to your opinions: 

Wanna talk about QoL? BDO already made many steps in this direction, for a long time now. But some players always ignore the past, come here and say : "you could add these QoL, gaming has changed...".

- You Argument to not add more QoL is, that it has been worse before, then why would anyone every improve something at all?

Players want to test the game? Cool, there are season servers. So they can witness how much of a jerk a player can get in a pure pve setting too : platoon in Polly for the 5k weekly quest. Everyone's sharing quietly until a guy comes and ks everyone, refusing to get in the platoon because "it's faster alone"... In these moments, really, the pk option would be useful.

- I cant see understand argument here but on Season Servers the contest is already huge and its not good for beginners, except Season 1(Novice).  The Goal should be to aquire new players and not to drive them away.

And fairy tale, yes. Not about the fact that pk may be misused, but fairy tale about players being unable to quietly progress because they are always tracked down by some overgeared players roaming in beginner's areas.

"always" is keyword. 

Many ways to avoid these situations, even a new player will barely be unconvenienced by that. 

- Yes i could have been more clear about this, it is happening concurrently people just dont bother with it anymore since Marni, they do their marni's realm and leave right after. Its not happening to you, since u know all alternatives and then you assume new players, without knowing all alternatives or workarounds, will not be bothered by this. 

And finally, for active players, it removes more players from the owpvp settings. If players can't use the hour every day, allowing them to accumulate will remove them more from the owpvp settings in the long run.

- Your concerns is that active players will not have the opportunity to hunt down theese new players or casuals for 3 hours, if they acucmulated all this time. I suggest you pvp with other active players or with same time investments. 

I know some people just have bad classes and like to go to lower AP spots to battle, but it has huge impact on people and appear as toxic community to them, even if the high-gear player wasnt doint it intetionally. 

There is other parts where we can improve Immersion, Open World or PVP. Instead of beeing afraid to lose the option to farm lowbies, we  could suggest some improvements that would actually benefit people. 

Under the guise of a civil discussion, you're doing nothing more than using the same one sided argumentation we read many many times, you show new players as morons unable to understand and use all the protective systems they can use to protect themselves and above all, you break things between pve and pvp. No. This is a PvPvE game.

Let's do it once again :

- baby seal clubbing can't happen in BDO, it would imply an absurd will for the victims to get endlessly killed. Season, Marni, channel switch, side rotations, other spots... Should I go on? So in BDO, it IS a bad argument. New players are not "screwed" in any way.

- my argument is that you can't add so-called "QoL" endlessly because, one day, it will necessarily become counterproductive. So, from its extreme initial pvpve setting, BDO already become much more friendly. Time to spend energy on other things.

- you won't solve anything by removing even more players' interactions. Pve can have good and bad sides, pvp too, and pvpve will share the same result, obviously. You're not alone on BDO, you can be in competition with other players on many aspects. You can also find some precious players who prefers to emphasize communication, that's what makes BDO rich, in fact.

- Don't consider new players as dumb, to begin with. They will nearly all quickly understand the mechanics of this game and use them to their advantage, and while they're learning, they can stay protected with Season and Marni.

- yeah I know, you "suggest", but you shouldn't. I chose to play with pvpve players, who are the same who chose this game, in fact. If I have some conflicts with a player on a spot, I may choose to use pk, as it is allowed, and at the same time I don't have to worry about the will of my opponent : that's intended.

Why should I, the PvPvE player in a pvpve game, worry about the fact that my opponent might disagree with my use of pvp/pk? It is intended, it is not necessarily toxic.

For me, it is far more toxic for the game and its atmosphere to see a vocal minority complaining about an intended feature. 

As usual, I'll end with the same reasoning : devs made Marni realms. It is the better proof that Devs see their game with guaranteed progress AND owpvp.  One hour is really a good balance and rising its duration or allowing it to be cumulated will allow new players, casuals AND geared players to stay away from owpvp and any player's interaction.

The search for perfect efficiency in their grind can be tempting even for pvpve players. PeaceInChaos illustrated this with an article, showing that players may even ruin their own pleasure and good mechanics for the sake of efficiency. 

You again neglect any appraisal of this topic, and misleading anything i said. I never said new players are morons, this would more likely show how much u care about community. 

Next thing, new players dont know mechanics of BDO othweise they wouldnt be new, furhtermore since BDO is very different from usual MMORPG mechanics the learning curve is slower. 

Yes, this is a PVPve game, i never stated the opposite, but your main Target shouldnt be to unfairly kill new charackters with endgame gear, if your only reason to play the game is destroying new players experience, then u made ur Side clear. 

(That is the reason why games use matchmaking systems, to prevent totally unfair fights)

Many Systems in this game are stacking and filling, as explained above.

Why are u afraid of not beeing able to kill people that rarely play (less progress and lower gear) and completely new players?

I dont think unfairly killing lowbies should be the major Player Interaction in bdo. 

New Players have 0 Knowledge of the game and for almost every aspect of the game you need a guide, this is widely known. 

You even have a Gear Progression u need to follow, even on BDO Website. 

It takes effort and time to get to know all the mechanics regarding BDO, the fact you state the opposite means either u neglect it or havent played the game in a few years. 

See there is tons of Systems that will continue or accumulate even when offline: 
Energy Recovery, Agris-Fever, Family Fame Daily Silver, Double log-ins if u missed a day during the week, etc. 

I see neither facts nor valid concerns on your side, but instead neglecting obvious facts and common knowledge and trying to mislead the conversation away from the topic. 

You keep writing im saying new people are dumb, i never did that! But on the other Hand, u did multiple times, i keep saying that new people dont know all the mechanics and alternatives that you are stating and that is a fact. 

Exactly, Marni's Realm was introduced for a reason. My suggestion should improve the experience of new Players and Casuals, geared players can hold their spot on theese servers just fine and can pvp fairly and most likely will not accumulate Marni's realm since they will use it, new players and casual players can not.  

Players still can only play the same amount of Marni's Realm, but a new Player will have accumulated a 2nd hr or 3 hrs when he reaches his first Marnis'realm spot and can play 3hrs at his first grind spot without beeing confronted with 300AP Goliaths at a Mediocre spot. 

Why are u so depserately trying to fight a Suggestion that would help new players and casual players by having the option to save up their safe-time and use it when they got time or need it?  

The only benefit you would have by fighting this suggestion is beeing able to pick unfair fights with weak players.

Yea i belive that you care for a part of the community, but you are supporting or atleast stating a vision to clearly unfair pvp by that "max gear vs beginner is intended" mentality.  There is many flaws and lack of pvp, but thats because there are not enough fun/fair-systems for that pvp.

Why would you prioritize,to force someone into something they clearly dont want?

Many people cant have fair DFS due to huge gear gaps in same spots and they could atleast use leftover marni's realm-time from past 2 days, if there is any leftover at all.  

See i wish they could bring back that "Shadow Arena" or what its called as a fun way. 

But you implying that the game would die, the moment max gear people lose the option to kill and destroy new players experience for 2 hours is obviously false. 

Your issue seems to be lack of open world pvp, but thats rooted in other issues far more than extending a already built system thats friendly for beginners and casuals. 

And you dared to mention matchmaking... Best proof that you don't really respect the initial idea of BDO's owpvp...

Still, in your lame attempt at slandering me, you forget one thing : I'm not the only player. While I will barely meet low geared players (and I even finished both pots, so I'm even less likely to meet one), low geared players may meet. And they may have a conflict. Do you have something against that ? I don't think so. Yet you see no problem in impacting this part of the owpvp. 

1. You are very welcome to explain the part where i tried to falsely slender you. 

2. Please try to stay on topic

3. I never said you are farming them, i explicetly mentioned tagged charackters as example farming for SP or speed-trash.

4. Worst case scenario i see is that, players that didnt use their marni's realm from yesterday, can have use yesterdays and todays marni's realm and evade forcefully slayed if they wish so for 1 or max 2 hours longer.  

We have many different players and everyone plays a bit different, so give a Player a bit more freedom in deciding how and when he wants to play his way. 

I still dont get that part: 

That's how it is : by allowing Marni time to stack, you'll also remove from owpvp some well-geared players ready for pvp, for the sake of greed. Stop.

Total time wouldnt be effected at all, only if the player is not able to use it on the day before it would accumulate/shift. (similar like agris fever)

I am not slendering you, but rather calling out your efforts of doing so on my posts. 

Last but not least, yep, you're not directly saying new players are dumb. But Ooooh boy, at what level of intelligence do you place them? 

Many things to learn in BDO? Yep. But how many of them are really related to or encouraged by Marni's realm? Far less. 

And thinking that new players can't understand these mechanics, even with season and Marni is pretty insulting for them.

So u say all new Players understand all BDO mechanics towards open world pvp/ karma system / Red players/Crystal break/Gear Downgrade and the other mechanics you mentioned above how to deal and combat beeing killed by a max gear goliath in a beginner spot? - Thats a real bold assumption u got there. 

I know that some new players are having a hard time even understanding why a Player would farm at a far lower Monster Zone than his gear level at all, since ive been talking to a few ppl lately that quit within a week or two. 

My Arguments are stated clearly, while u are still throwing around with assumptions and misinterpretions.

I respect youre opinion and that you are against it, and thats fine.

I also very much appreciate valid concerns and a constructive discussion, but saying every new player knows exactly how to defend vs a max gear player and how to abuse systems against him is a really, really obvious misinformation you are using as a Argument. 

Maybe you could think of other ways and elements to improve OpenWorldPVP in other ways, since u dont like its current state and this is a discussion and Feedback Board. I bet you got alot there that you already thought of, but please stop the emotional arguing here.