But that's the thing: assuming a higher density of players, the game design forces the duel for spot. Be it declared or otherwise. They world is designed so that conflicts over resources are unavoidable. I mean, say 200 players decide to all go and grind Ash Forest at the same time. Then what? Whoever doesn't fit there should go... where? 

Just like Player A has no deed of the spot he's grinding in. It is not his birthright. It was not given to him at the moment he arrived there and it is not guaranteed at any point, by the devs, the game, Elion or Rngesus, that it will remain available for him. Neither of the players has any right to make any claim to the spot.

I agree that griefing isn't only materialized in the form of guildless karmabombing. Forcing someone out of spot just because you can, when the entire node is empty is also griefing. And while the former is an incentive to mobfeed or to declare a Vendetta and protect the grinder, the latter - assuming, as above, that the victim is guildless - is an incentive to karmabomb. And in that scenario, the Vendetta heavily favors the griefer.

So then, in order to both, keep the world open and encourage competition over resources AND prevent unnecessarily disruptive gameplay on both sides, a system should be introduced. That protects both sides from the negative effects of all types of griefing. And if that makes the karma system futile, meh?! 
- prevent overpowering by disincentivizing grinding in spots much lower than the player's current gearscore.

- prevent loss of xp and crystals/buffs caused by mob-feeding

- prevent loss of valuable elixir rotations from pvp deaths

- prevent loss of karma and, as a consequence, gear, from a sustained battle over the grind spot.

None of the above can work if employed alone. They'll just assist one side on griefing the other.

... Well, maybe with the exception of the first point, which will just make high gear players - rightfully - feel bullied by the devs.

Well, for once or twice a week, for 24h or 180 minutes, and cancelled with a simple channel switch, I did not see too much potential abuse.

Though, unless I missed a part of the idea, couldn't someone simply switch then switch back (which can be easy, above all on home channels) to cancel the Vendetta and make the user waste one of these Vendetta?

Wouldn't it be better not to cancel it, but to keep it active for the set duration on the channel of its activation? 

Still, I'm saying this for the idea because I know you're really willing to make the game better, but I truly think the best answer lies right at the beginning, in the karma and death penalties, and not in additional systems.

But it's a well-thought idea overall, GG my friend! 

No. It does not.

On so many other spots or chanels!

DFS might have been usefull by a time, where there was only 1 or 2 spots to grind on. It began at the start of the game when there was just a few rewarding spots to grind on. Now it's obsolete, thanks to those many spots and new regions we have, thanks to those many potions or trav or compass zones, so not only Elvia, Hexe, Orcs...

Also, now that there are Marni's, there is VERY LESS justification in forcing dfs, since anyone can find a spot.

DFS had never been a rule, there might be a reason for that. Which one? I don't know, no one knows actually except PA. So stop pretending that the game is designed that way. In Korea they don't "dfs". They wait for the spot to be available.

Duel for spot could be cool, if not forced. Not the case here.

But that's the thing! Not everybody wanna play BDO the same way! It's an open pvx, not forced pvp! (hence the karma system, not to abuse pvp! When it's forced, it's called pk and it ruins another player game!)

Some might want to contest zones, some might just be looking for their hour of the day, grinding as soon as they found a free spot, and they cross their fingers not to find a toxic who comes and forces his own way!

Even high geared players can farm in lower zones, whatever motive they have.

It's an open world, you said it yourself.

So in one sentence: you don't want any consequence for bullying a guy who doesn't want pvp but you wanna kill him anyway.

Consequences are here to stop those free kills.

PA said they wanted to distinguish pvp from pk, that's why the karma system exists.

When I read so many threads trying to suggest ways to avoid consequences for pkers, I'm really fine with the actual karma system!

My only problem here is about griefers who come and invade your rotation.

Of course you'll say again: "Just like Player A has no deed of the spot he's grinding in. It is not his birthright."

And I'll say: it's called respect, the same social skill you have in life. You're not gonna park your car where there's one already, you're not gonna find the driver and say "DFS". You move and find another, even if you have no time, even if you're late. That's it.

If, in the contrary, you wanna be toxic in the game, no problem with that. And it's not even a criticism: it's part of the game! And I deal with it! Personnaly I like it, as long as it's regulated to avoid excess of toxicity. When I pk, it's never players already in rotations, I consider it not fair to ruin their farm, buffs and everything. That's a matter of opinion.

I pk out of safe zones, out of rotations, sometimes people agree to come in arena, sometimes not so I assume and I lose karma. That's fun that way and even more challenging!

Your way is toxic, that's ok, but recognize it for starter, then accept that not everybody likes it.

That's why there's so many people in game, and even here on the forum, who counter all those propositions.

If 200 people want to grind Ash Forest at the same time, they can't, even "On so many other spots or chanels!". Some will have to go and afk fish for half a day. That's hypothetical situation. But the area offers 2-3 spots, at best.

"So in one sentence: you don't want any consequence for bullying a guy who doesn't want pvp but you wanna kill him anyway." So in one sentence, you can't read 5 rows of text before attacking. Let me help with that, by reminding you that I've said "None of the above can work if employed alone. They'll just assist one side on griefing the other."

I don't want PvE servers. Cus then zoomy classes will grief everyone. I don't like karmabombing and mob-feeding. I don't like that I make at Murrowak's 30% of the silver a Tuvala player makes at Cadries.  They're all issues of the game. I don't like any exploit of the game that saves a player from the consequences of their actions. All the exploits are done with ill-intent, but good excuse. 

"I pk out of safe zones, out of rotations, sometimes people agree to come in arena, sometimes not so I assume and I lose karma. That's fun that way and even more challenging!" It would be weird if you'd pk inside safe zones...

Also, I don't pk at all. I don't defend my own playstyle here, as that is "Grind if I can, lifeskill if I can't". I don't flag up to defend my spot, I don't karmabomb, I don't mob-feed and, as such, I don't need special rules to prevent me from abusing someone or someone from abusing me. I prefer diplomacy over hard-coded common sense. If diplomacy fails, I prefer to not waste my loot buffs on pvp. 

You are becoming Asd, accusing me of things that are not true, by simply taking stuff out of context. I'm done arguing off-topic. Interestingly enough, it all started with me actually agreeing to the one very good point you made a few posts ago, back when you weren't busy to ad-hominem in 1000 words. Pretty poor way of gaining people's respect... Also, one last thing, if there wasn't any problem, people would not make gazillion post in favor and against the system. You literally can't use "Respect other players" as a rule. Cus it's not really working. Just as DFS isn't really working. Cus some consider something to be disrespectful and some others consider disrespectful the fact that the first ones consider something else disrespectful. If you don't get the point, it's alright. You can't tell ppl they need each other for the community to thrive. Because some ppl thrive on some other people's misery. 

1. Back on topic, though. If the problem brought up by PriseElectrique can't be solved, the Vendetta system can't really function. But it can be solved, by removing the "guildless players can't declare Vendettas" rule. After all, with a limited resource, no one can actually abuse the function. 

2. Then again, the underdogs will still be a victim here, Vendetta's or not. And since there's no respect shown, only... demanded by some, it stands to reason that a bully will bully and the underdog will feel inclined to grief back, in some way. 'Cause, well, just as the bully couldn't be arsed to pick an empty spot, the underdog refuses to move to one too. So the Vendetta isn't changing anything there either, except for allowing the bully to grind in the underdog's former spot, worries free, as soon as he puts up the Vendetta.

I keep going back to the thought that one of the major issues is the strong incentive for players to grind particular spots (usually low AP ones) over most others. I'm also gonna stop giving input on the topic. People are too valiant in their effort to defend their favorite tools to keep it civil and respectful, while asking for civility and respect.

And we are now reaching times where gear is so easy to aquire, that you can be at the top spots within a few months. Of those top spots, there are also only a few. So the argument is totally valid, especially with how stupporn many players are because they have to grind that one spot on that specific rotation or else they can't min-max.

You will never have such a situation. That's why it's obsolete. And yes, as I said, there's enough spots and servers, you'll always find a spot... if you dare looking a bit for it. I usually look for 3 chans, sometimes less if I'm lucky, to get the free spot I want.

I agree with the elixir buff not to be removed for all players, it doesn't change the fact that there would be no sanction for pkers anyway. What's your point there bro?

I don't especially want them either.

I meant just near towns... at the exit of it if you prefer...

"Asd"?

I don't take things out of contest, we just have different points of view. I expressed mine.

I don't accuse u especially, don't be so touchy!

But if you defend an idea, of course I'm gonna refer to "you".

I'm just glad that PA maintains the karma system. They plan to change it in some regions, due to certain parameters, and I'm hasty to discover how good or how bad I'll find it!

And anyway, considering the time they take to bring stuff, it's not for tomorrow..........

I agree.

On Elvia if there's any system to regulate the contest of the spots, why not, I'm all for it! End game spot are what they are, even though there are more now.

In the contrary for all other regular players, out of Elvia, there's no interest in favor of the majority.

"I agree with the elixir buff not to be removed for all players, it doesn't change the fact that there would be no sanction for pkers anyway. What's your point there bro?"

Point being that toxicity at the grind spot is inflated by certain aspects. And, if you read above the whole thing again, you'll maybe understand that what I meant is the more those aspects are in a given situation, the more unpleasant the entire thing becomes. Giving players a tool vs karmabombers will not fix stuff, giving underdogs protection while grinding off-season will not fix stuff, asoasf.

"But if you defend an idea, of course I'm gonna refer to "you"."

I defend an idea as long as it sounds reasonable. The points you brought up before valiantly defending karmabombing were solid. Then, you took Jack's approach of "just go grind somewhere else!" and "there's Marni's Realm if you don't like it!" and it went belly up. 

There's no denying that karmabombing is annoying, even more so when done as a way to contest a spot from the get-go (if there's ever such a case, dunno). Just as annoying as being booted out of your spot by someone who can't grind anywhere else because of some untreatable intolerance to the landscape or some crap. And of course the best solution is to just be civil. It worked for me at all times (sometimes harder, but it worked). It's not always the case though.

I mean, if we two meet in the game world, we probably won't duel, guildless or not, vendetta in place or not. But not everyone can be civil. Some are actually enjoying the game a different way and for those scenarios, the karma system was introduced. Then, some of those players found a way to abuse the karma system. Then, some found ways to avoid that abuse. Then again, the other ones found a way around the ways... To the point where the karma system is meaningless to most actors, for one reason or another - be it that we can handle ourselves in a good manner or that the system itself (with all of its components) can be avoided or abused.

Let's say the majority of players are fine to just use the tradition of dfs without any bells and whistles or, simply avoid the confrontation altogether. Then neither this suggestion, neither the flag one are intended for them (although, I would like a way to easily identify a taken spot, especially if it's the first time going there - as I remember spending maybe 10-15 minutes at Jade's to figure out which route ppl there took, so as to avoid griefing them and still ending up being in someone's spot smh). But for those that need the protection that the karma/wardec system offers, something could be done... maybe. It would also boil down to how difficult it would be to apply a bandaid to the karma system and/or if there was some other method to regulate the eventual disputes. 

It is, ultimately a useless effort, it would seem. Damn shame!

@Harth:

You know, your idea about flags was not that bad, I told you my opinion about it and made my point about giving new content around something everybody encounters in game: the spot contest!

Now I didn't agree with your whole concept but I like the idea of making new challenges, especially on high geared spots.

I think we all can agree on one fact: grinding is boring.

If I wasn't with my friends, voice chatting, I would very much less farm.

So some new content about that would be good actually!

Now we're off topic since it's another subjet here, but I'm sure there's something fair and fun that could be built.

It's just that this system suggested here is supposed to solve a problem, as I see it.

But, as I see it again, the problem would just be deported, not solved.

There will always be funny guys to bypass something by abusing another way.

I think the best we can do now is to wait for what PA has in stock.

After all, they said they were gonna alter the system in some zones.

Now for the "when".............................. well............................. PA is full of surprises! (or not...!)

Btw @Harth:

Don't compare me anymore with any random stealer of my avatar please! ;)

More seriously, I know I've been mistaken several times because of it. I wish we could personalize a bit more our avatars on the forum!