"The biggest criticism that I can foresee popping up here would be from the average mid-gear players that just want to find a spot and grind in peace. Aka - giving stronger players more tools to lock down a spot might force some players to channel swap a lot more often, even if there's a weekly cap on it"

I agree that this is a valid concern and agree that players should be allowed to grind in peace, given the confines of game rules.

"But again, to the people who rage about that concept: stronger players dunking on weaker players is fundamentally baked into the philosophy of this game. The karma system was *not* meant to combat this fact, it was only meant to discourage blind griefing. PA is clearly okay with the concept of PKing as long as it is done in moderation."

The goals with this proposal is not to give stronger players more tools to dunk on weaker ones.  The goal is to minimize a certain type of griefing ("Karmabombing"/rotation griefing) while taking into account other forms of griefing, such as random PK at the same time without compromising too heavily on either side.  That's the overall goal with this system and I'm just trying to think of a good way to achieve this without compromising on BDO's core gameplay and developer vision of the game.  If it's found that it TRULY does give stronger players more tools to dunk on weaker ones, then that would need to be explained clearly, with evidence or valid reasoning, and not with half-crazed comments filled with lunacy.  And after that, more discussion can happen about ways to alleviate that concern while keeping the overall goal intact....like, this is how discussions work lol (some people don't seem to know that).

It's not an easy solution.  Hence why I believe PA stated there's abusability within the Karma System, but haven't yet come up with a solution themselves.  I'm just trying to genuinely help, in the best way I can.

"There's another alternative solution in this thread for a spot-claiming mechanic that's a bit more restrictive than this one, but might give more options to both high and low gs players."

Is this alternative solution similar to this one? :) It's a post I made a long time ago, but didn't get much traction.  Either way, I thank you for your input and appreciate the points you bring up https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Forum/ForumTopic/Detail?_topicNo=7196&_opinionNo=0

"His idea targets the guildless and undeccable griefers and it is - or, at least seams - a decent solution to the problem."

Yes, that is the main target and who happens to be the culprit of, IMO, the most heinous acts of griefing in BDO.  If a player is guilded, they risk GVG, which offers those they grief a form of retribution / justice.  If a player PK's over and over, they suffer justified Karma penalties.  However, if a player is guildless, they are, quite literally, allowed to grief with impunity as there is not system in place that dissuades people from doing this other than one's personal sense of morality.  I am not saying that just because a player is guildless, they will grief, I am saying the capability is there and there's nothing dissuading it aside from one's personal morality.  That's simply not enough.  We need a tangible solution.  The exact, hard-number, specifics like number of allowed Vendettas and amount of time channels remain Marked are speculative and tentative, however, the overall concept, I feel, is a reasonable solution.  I am not saying it's the best, or that it's perfect, or that it's what WILL indeed solve the problem, but it's just the best thing I came up with through consideration of all sides and thinking about this issue for a very long time. There's room for improvement, I'm sure, but I'm glad you and some others here get the gist of what the system hopes to achive.

I like your suggestions.  Thanks for offering ways to improve the system and I agree that all of them would be beneficial :) things like keeping this system off of Season servers, complete agree.

"By your proposition, you just wanna erase the karma system."

It is specifically stated that the current Karma System is unchanged at the bottom of the proposal, in case you didn't read it.  So it is unclear how you came to that conclusion.  Was I not concise enough?  If so, please state how and where you are getting confused, because the Vendetta System does not "erase" the Karma System -- it's a totally different, additional, system that takes Karma into account.

"Devs said so, you wrote it yourself: As for the Karma system, we have no plans to change the system in any major way. This is because Black Desert exists as one huge field. We feel that the Karma system is a "standard" where we can distinguish between "PvP" and "PK."

If they are going to change it in some regions, as you wrote again, it's something else. But not in the main idea, as you can see. Unless you can't understand what they said. Read more carefully please... It's humiliating to quote yourself back."

You left out an important part of that dev quote where the devs state: "However, we've heard stories from certain regions where the Karma system is being abused. We are currently looking into an operational solution to improve on this issue." Without that crucial part of the quote, it removes major context.

I am not sure how you came to the conclusion of "if they are going to change it in some regions", because, as per this dev quote we're quoting, they didn't say they'd "change it in some regions", just that they've HEARD FROM certain regions it's being abused.  There is no mention of they'd change it in some regions only.  It seems as though it is you who does not understand what they're saying, so maybe it's you who needs to read more carefully?  Pretty sure I'm reading what they're saying correctly, but if not, please point out how, but in a way that doesn't showcase YOU misreading something like you did here.

Furthermore, in your example, you didn't even mention the guildless player making his rotation:

- Player A is guildless and grinding.

- Player B (guilded) wanna come and force or grief the spot.

- Player B can make a Vendetta on player A who can't (by your rules) and this is despite anything that player A will do or say. He'll just be broke by player B, lose money, buffs and more.

What's fair for player A there?

This isn't fair for Player A, and like I stated many times over, this system is open for improvement, hence why it's posted here.  So thanks for bringing this up, discussion can be had. 

For this scenario, yes, Player A is at a disadvantage.  The Vendetta System would then, encourage guild participation, which I feel, is a good thing, overall.  We play an MMO and being part of a guild is an important aspect of MMO's.  But BDO is a sandbox, so with that, players can play how they want, which is why being guildless is fine too, as per what you stated.

In this, very specific scenario, I will say, Player A is encouraged to join a guild.  If they don't want to, that's fine, but they run the risk of this specific scenario happening.  To me, it's a reasonable situation because the problem of Karmabombing / rotation griefing is much bigger, more harmful, and is more wide-spread compared to this very specific scenario.  Most players are in guilds.  Guildless are allowed griefing with impunity.  I would love to hear how YOU would solve this.  So, how would you solve the issue of the Karma System being abused, like the devs acknowledged?  I'm curious to know.

"Your system is not there to avoid griefers, it's more there to allow griefers to take a rotation already taken."

Please know that "griefing" in BDO isn't one dimensional, as you're so eloquently implying.  Griefing comes in many shades of gray, all of which, have been discussed ad nauseum over the years, and it's truly surprising to me that you, and others, don't know at least most of them by now by equating griefing to solely PK.  I've read a few of your posts and it's clear to me that PK is the only form of griefing you ever talk about.  Which is very odd to me.

So you've read wrong. I call griefer a griefer, someone who comes and ruins the game of another. So even a guy coming counter way of the rotation, a guy mob throwing or other forms of ruining game.

First, you wanna impose to be in a guild. It's an mmorpg, open pvx world. It's full of all kind of players and nobody has to be forced to be in anything. The way you wanna push people to be in guilds "because you think so", it's forced and unfair.

Then, karmabombing / rotation griefing that you find more harmful, what does it have to do with guildless? Everytime it happens for me, griefers are in guilds! I encounter many guildless and rarely have problems with them. Let them have the game as they want it!

You wanna make a new system that would bypass the actual system. Therefore: avoid the loss of karma and pking penalties.

I don't get what you don't understand in my words... they are going to find solutions, it means changes, so yeah, I stated right.

Words for nothing there dude.

You wanna condemn all the guildless who chose to play solo for just a small bunch of them who bully. Unfair, once again.

Your opinion. Guildless players might consider being solo more important for them.

I already mentionned a solution to avoid griefers on rotations (counter rotations, karmabomb, pk...)

Flagged zones to give advantages for 1 hour 05 minutes for the guy grinding. So if a griefer comes, he might lose karma. The one on his rotation can freely kill him with no penalty. This of course only during the 1 hour 05 minute he's grinding.

I make it short here but I already posted it more detailed and you've read it.

So griefers are disadvantaged to bully and ruin the farms of others. No problem about losing karma to kill the bullies!

I feel you :) It's such a polarizing topic but a deeply important one. Sad that it takes a bit of bravery to even attempt a discussion on it, personal opinions abound.

Yes! Very similar :) I like the name 'Aura of Protection,' AoP is a nice acronym ^^ I know there's been quite a few spot-claiming ideas brought up over the years, I tend to have a soft spot for objective-based PvP so had to toss it in there.
 

@PriseElectrique, my previous answer has been buried under the heated conversation, but did you notice that the proposal implied restrictions : once or twice a week, for 24h or 180 minutes (WIP), and cancelled with a simple channel switch.

To me, it clearly acts like a kind of precious but limited joker in front of a stubborn player. 

@Sadalsuud:

Yes, I noticed. Once or twice a week it's very much for a toxic who want to ruin the farm of another.

I rarely happen to have a conflict in game during rotations. I don't see how that would help.

The actual karma system is fine, the only problem concerns the griefers who ruin the grinds.

Other than that, I don't see any positive point that this system would bring. Such a change is not necessary.

Once again, the Idea I liked the most, even if I don't agree with it being applied to all spots, is that one proposed by Harth.

BUT it's really to add some fun content to the game! Not to get rid of the actual system.

I say it again, the karma is not the problem here. The problem is the lost of it when we face griefers, hence the problem is: the griefers. THAT is the point that needs to be solved when we face consequences just by defending ourselves.

But hey, it's an open world... toxicity is unfortunately part of this.

What a great mind set.  If 200 customers want to play your game simulataneously what can you do?  Obviousy kick a bunch of those customers out and tell them to go elsewhere.  I mean what else you could you do in a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game and with today's standards of supporting in excess of MILLIONS OF PLAYERS.

You kick them to the curb and tell them to grind grass beetles obviously.  You tell them this game is full go find another one lol.

Of course your answer will be terrible and unrealistic like go to a completely inferior area or channel hop all night hoping for the best.  The REAL answer is people WONT UP WITH THAT TRASH game play and will Go SOMEWHERE ELSE.  Such as another game or activity NOT BDO.

Your ideas are terrible and you are no authority to be tellinng others who should be responding or not.

Hahhahahah good one!! But I'm sure that you even get it.  Did you just out yourself?

"especially with how stupporn many players are because they have to grind that one spot on that specific rotation or else they can't min-max."

That's YOU brah.  You're the PROBLEM.  You can't get along with others because your stubborn and selfish attitude.  No wonder you have so many problems in a multiplayer environment.  You think your stank don't stank brah.  Well it does, and pretty bad too.

Not only that YOU DON'T DESERVE the TOP DAWG spots.  Those are reserved for REAL PVPERS ON ARSHA. 

The real problem has been identified.  YOU want to be a SHOT CALLER, but you AIN'T GOOD ENOUGH BRAH.  You just don't have what it takes.

Get rid of your stubborn attitude or git gud and go to Arsha.

PeaceInChaos self reports himself?

"I'd suggest recording these interactions, if possible.  There's a section in the Operational Policy under the Disrupting Gameplay section that states:  "An act of constantly bothering or harassing a specific member and disrupting their gameplay " may be subject to penalties up to disconnecting users from the game, depending on the severity.

I'd recommend recording these interactions of being witch-hunted, and screen-cap any messages and interactions between you and them as evidence of harrassment.  Send these to GM's via BDO ticketing system.  Maybe they aren't warranted a perma-ban, but if you are truly being maliciously witch-hunted, said action could be punishable via violation of the Operational Policy, but that would need to be investigated by a GM."

I'm not sure what to think about this.  PeaceInChaos writes a post himself explaining to another user being harassed in the game to sends complaints to a GM's to possibly take action against their account.  That he understands the policy seeks to prevent such abuse and harassment.

Not a huge issue by itself, but this is where it gets really bad

PeaceInChaos then keeps suggesting to Pearl Abyss systems which are designed to create such harassment and problems he is already aware of.  This person was already having problems due to critical design flaws in BDO.  One being the tracking mechanism in town to help locate players.  And War Decs that allow circumenting the karma system.

So PeaceInChaos suggests to the victims of such behavior to complain to GMs?  Then asks Pearl Abyss to deliberately implement a system which would allow this type of abuse not just to clan members, but to literally every player in the game?  Using the same broken mechanics he already knows caused problems so bad they should be reported to GM's?

This is VERY TROUBLING.

Troubling for you because you have misconceptions about PeaceInChaos. We know you don't like any solution to get rid of bodythrowing, but you should also stop your witch hunt against him. 

@JackBelling:

Out of topic and bullying here.

Wtf bro?