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UTC 20 : 1 12. Jul 2024
CEST 22 : 1 12. Jul 2024
PDT 13 : 1 12. Jul 2024
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Post Evasion/DR Rework: Cumulative Archer Feedback Thread (PvP)
20. Jun 2024, 12:50 (UTC)
1535 10
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 20. Jun 2024, 12:51 (UTC)
# 1

Disclaimer: I will be giving my perspective on how Archer feels on a smaller scale such as Arena of Solare. I will not be discussing his performance in NW as I do not regularly participate in it. However, this is a cumulative thread, so if you do have experience then please do add it. 

Summary: On a smaller scale, such as Arena of Solare, Archer damage has become too weak and he does not benefit much from the recent DR/Evasion changes. Before the patch, he was considered a glass cannon as he could use damage to pressure his opponent despite his defensive weakness. However, now he can't do as much damage and also dies relatively quicker than other classes. 

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The main issue with the rework - The roles of each class:

The main issue with the rework is that classes are diversified. Not all classes scale equally, so if you buff defense across the board, then those classes who benefit from this specific stat will gain a tremendous advantage while those who do not benefit as much. I feel there is a need to break down these roles for you, so let's shortly overview the 2 most relevant roles:

Tanks: These are classes whose kit is designed to be more of a tank (High defense, lower damage). The trade-off here is supposed to be getting more survivability in exchange for offense(Unfortunately, there are a few exceptions as some classes can excel at both). This is the role that got incredibly boosted by this patch. An example of this is succession Nova.

DPS: As the name suggests, the role of this class is to deal damage. Usually, the trade-off is to have a weaker defense/lower survivability in exchange for more offensive power but that is no longer the case. Many classes fall into this category where they are considered "glass cannons" as in they are easy to die but can deal a lot of damage if left alive. Archer falls in this category, or at least used to. The recent patch was an indirect nerf to this role as "glass cannon" classes now deal less damage and they still die relatively quickly. 

Maybe I completely misunderstood the way you create these classes as they are not meant to follow a "role-based" model, but the issue still stands.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main issue with Archer:

As stated above, Archer currently dies quickly and there is no trade-off for this occurrence as his damage is now not enough. In other words, our hp is low, our mobility relies too much on stamina, and we don’t get a lot of iframes/SA as some classes do. We live a little longer, yes, but it does not justify the loss in damage.  In the Arena of Solare, This can be clearly demonstrated, as Archer is usually the first one to die as it can take just one combo to kill him while other classes manage to stay alive until the timer runs out(Though is good to point out that now Arena of Solare rounds drags until the timer runs out). As a ranged class, I understand that there should be a weakness but what’s the tradeoff if our ranged damage gets heavily nerfed? 

Other classes that are also DPS have also been screwed but they have better survivability kits than Archer. This is mainly because they can rely on one or more of the following:

1) Iframes

2) "Permanent" SA - where they can rotate between multiple skills that have SA

3) Mobility - where they can retreat, position, and recover relatively quickly

4) HP/HP recovery - Where they have more HP to rely on or have a skill that heals them up

5) Great Stamina - Some classes don't need "Stamina management" that Archer runs into where we run out and can't retreat due to lack of stamina. 

6) Damage (not anymore) - Where the class could use their damage to force their opponent to retreat in fear of dying. 

Of course, there is also the argument of his performance in siege. So there needs to be a way to balance Archer on a smaller scale without blowing his performance out of the water on a larger scale. However, I suppose the damage loss on a larger scale is not as good as it used to be. 

I would like to point out that this seems to be an attempt to move in the right direction. It is good that you are attempting to solve the issue where classes die quickly; however, this is NOT the way to do it. Each class is unique and needs to be adjusted individually. You are on the right track, just on the wrong train. 

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 21. Jun 2024, 13:27 (UTC)
# 2

totally agree

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 21. Jun 2024, 20:55 (UTC)
# 3

agree

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 22. Jun 2024, 01:12 (UTC)
# 4

Problem with Archer and older classes are not being released when Maegu and Woosa were

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 22. Jun 2024, 01:42 (UTC)
# 5
On: Jun 20, 2024, 12:50 (UTC), Written by Silvery

Disclaimer: I will be giving my perspective on how Archer feels on a smaller scale such as Arena of Solare. I will not be discussing his performance in NW as I do not regularly participate in it. However, this is a cumulative thread, so if you do have experience then please do add it. 

Summary: On a smaller scale, such as Arena of Solare, Archer damage has become too weak and he does not benefit much from the recent DR/Evasion changes. Before the patch, he was considered a glass cannon as he could use damage to pressure his opponent despite his defensive weakness. However, now he can't do as much damage and also dies relatively quicker than other classes. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main issue with the rework - The roles of each class:

The main issue with the rework is that classes are diversified. Not all classes scale equally, so if you buff defense across the board, then those classes who benefit from this specific stat will gain a tremendous advantage while those who do not benefit as much. I feel there is a need to break down these roles for you, so let's shortly overview the 2 most relevant roles:

Tanks: These are classes whose kit is designed to be more of a tank (High defense, lower damage). The trade-off here is supposed to be getting more survivability in exchange for offense(Unfortunately, there are a few exceptions as some classes can excel at both). This is the role that got incredibly boosted by this patch. An example of this is succession Nova.

DPS: As the name suggests, the role of this class is to deal damage. Usually, the trade-off is to have a weaker defense/lower survivability in exchange for more offensive power but that is no longer the case. Many classes fall into this category where they are considered "glass cannons" as in they are easy to die but can deal a lot of damage if left alive. Archer falls in this category, or at least used to. The recent patch was an indirect nerf to this role as "glass cannon" classes now deal less damage and they still die relatively quickly. 

Maybe I completely misunderstood the way you create these classes as they are not meant to follow a "role-based" model, but the issue still stands.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The main issue with Archer:

As stated above, Archer currently dies quickly and there is no trade-off for this occurrence as his damage is now not enough. In other words, our hp is low, our mobility relies too much on stamina, and we don’t get a lot of iframes/SA as some classes do. We live a little longer, yes, but it does not justify the loss in damage.  In the Arena of Solare, This can be clearly demonstrated, as Archer is usually the first one to die as it can take just one combo to kill him while other classes manage to stay alive until the timer runs out(Though is good to point out that now Arena of Solare rounds drags until the timer runs out). As a ranged class, I understand that there should be a weakness but what’s the tradeoff if our ranged damage gets heavily nerfed? 

Other classes that are also DPS have also been screwed but they have better survivability kits than Archer. This is mainly because they can rely on one or more of the following:

1) Iframes

2) "Permanent" SA - where they can rotate between multiple skills that have SA

3) Mobility - where they can retreat, position, and recover relatively quickly

4) HP/HP recovery - Where they have more HP to rely on or have a skill that heals them up

5) Great Stamina - Some classes don't need "Stamina management" that Archer runs into where we run out and can't retreat due to lack of stamina. 

6) Damage (not anymore) - Where the class could use their damage to force their opponent to retreat in fear of dying. 

Of course, there is also the argument of his performance in siege. So there needs to be a way to balance Archer on a smaller scale without blowing his performance out of the water on a larger scale. However, I suppose the damage loss on a larger scale is not as good as it used to be. 

I would like to point out that this seems to be an attempt to move in the right direction. It is good that you are attempting to solve the issue where classes die quickly; however, this is NOT the way to do it. Each class is unique and needs to be adjusted individually. You are on the right track, just on the wrong train. 

Hi, I've been playing Archer for 4-5 years, just Archer, no other main class, and I want to share my opinion on what you wrote here:

  1. Iframe (you have enough, you just need to know how to rotate them, plus with BSR 25% Zephyr).
  2. This class after the 2nd rework is extremely protected in skills, the only problem is S+Q and the fact that you put core on S+E (range option) or on Uproth for low-mid-range combat. In case you didn't know, the Archer can jump from a low range zone to a much larger range zone very quickly. It's an extremely mobile class, currently, in terms of mobility, I consider it in the top 5 classes in the game, occupying exactly 5th place after: Nova Aw, Tamer Succ, Ninja Aw, Corsair Aw.
  3. I think there's no need to respond to this point if you read everything above.
  4. If you use Luthragon + Flow and Meteor Dive, you regenerate very quickly, you also throw in a tendon and that's it, as they aren't useful when you're knocked down because you still get one-comboed by most. In short, with Archer, you must not fall to the ground. Yes, it is possible.
  5. You have very high resistance if you rotate combos with IF > FG > Super Armor, why? Because you have 2 that cancel the damage and 1 that now reduces it, and while you use the other 2, you recharge FG, thus obtaining very good resistance. Besides, you can dodge many abilities in the game if you know the classes you are fighting against.
  6. Yes, the damage is much lower now, the major problem being that you need to do a long combo, and the animations of the damage skills in Ascension are very long. (Smite example (use quickslot for 0.5 fast animation cancel)).
  7. Indeed, there is an issue with players who came to Archer, putting full blast and staying in the back, one-shotting at Siege, taking advantage of the fact that they can easily hide behind a group or in a disorganized fight. In general, this class actually, we can't say it "broke everyone," it did that as long as it wasn't targeted, the same story as the ranger. We were good when the opponent didn't see us, and we generally stole the last hit, thus having hundreds of kills.

Now, after these explanations, let's get down to serious business. The Archer is a very protected class that allows you to play at a varied distance. What does this mean? You can go close to the opponent, take distance and return while throwing CC from all directions, but you can also play just range and keep a stable distance. I don't understand why it was made half low range half full range, but that's the reason I play the class. It seems to allow you to play freestyle.

The real problems after the update, in my view, are: The fact that accuracy doesn't scale well at all on Archer (Test done 1150 acc vs 1200 eva Sage, 50% HP) Full RBF 323 AP. If you hit 1400 Evasion, you don't reduce their life by even 10%, but these classes still deal damage to you because you went with a build that should give you damage and not resistance. I sacrificed resistance for more damage, where is the damage? Another problem is that the cancel-animations with which you shortened your combos have small defects, sometimes going through from one skill to another, sometimes not. The famous S+F> Shift RMB in the air or RMB > Shift+RMB or maybe Meteor or main combo A+F > S+E. I understand the same problems are on all classes and that the game is a bit laggy with these animations. Apart from that, if you reduce the damage from S+Q, at least give it some protection so that the players who still play full range have something to throw at their opponents.

Thank you for your opinion, I will leave a short video showing the Archer's mobility (a few days before these changes). https://streamable.com/k5ypj8

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 22. Jun 2024, 17:19 (UTC)
# 6

One specific thing: Shadebound Beam, supposed to stay invisible ("concealed") for the duration (10 sec) unless another skill is used, right? But I saw someone was visible while firing, and then tried it myself.  Yep, when firing the visibility turns on, then goes back to invisible between shots. Except the in-between-shot invisibility didn't occur when viewing someone else using the skill, probably due to lags or what-not.  Not how this worked before, I think.

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Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 24. Jun 2024, 01:19 (UTC)
# 7
On: Jun 22, 2024, 17:19 (UTC), Written by Entropoid

One specific thing: Shadebound Beam, supposed to stay invisible ("concealed") for the duration (10 sec) unless another skill is used, right? But I saw someone was visible while firing, and then tried it myself.  Yep, when firing the visibility turns on, then goes back to invisible between shots. Except the in-between-shot invisibility didn't occur when viewing someone else using the skill, probably due to lags or what-not.  Not how this worked before, I think.

No, that's working as intended, it's not total invisibility and I recall the day when the skill was released, shadebound beam is only invisible while you are moving or stationary but the moment you fire the shots, you will be visible until you stop firing. Hence why it is usually only used when at a safe vantage or to pull off a pseudo assassin move. At least that's what I've observed from testing. Coupled with attack speed, it can seem as if you are permanently invisible (though the shot will usually give away your position). But if it worked otherwise for you, I'd be interested to see.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 24. Jun 2024, 06:37 (UTC)
# 8
On: Jun 24, 2024, 01:19 (UTC), Written by Aluendyure

No, that's working as intended, it's not total invisibility and I recall the day when the skill was released, shadebound beam is only invisible while you are moving or stationary but the moment you fire the shots, you will be visible until you stop firing. Hence why it is usually only used when at a safe vantage or to pull off a pseudo assassin move. At least that's what I've observed from testing. Coupled with attack speed, it can seem as if you are permanently invisible (though the shot will usually give away your position). But if it worked otherwise for you, I'd be interested to see.

Unfortunately, all I have now are increasingly fuzzy memories.  Well, it is what it is now, thanks for the response.

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Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 25. Jun 2024, 22:50 (UTC)
# 9
On: Jun 24, 2024, 06:37 (UTC), Written by Entropoid

Unfortunately, all I have now are increasingly fuzzy memories.  Well, it is what it is now, thanks for the response.

No worries, I kinda wish it was invis all the way through, but I don't think it would work anyway with such a short duration and slow movement and if firing arrows was also invisible, we'd have everyone up in arms. :(

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 25. Jun 2024, 23:04 (UTC)
# 10

Archer needs more nerfs if anything. Ranged dps should never be able to solo kill as they are meant to provide consistent damage rather than burst and therefore their combo damaghe should not even come close to any of the "rat" or burst classes and should be nerfed much more than they currently are even with the recent changes.

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