#Allgemeines_Gameplay
PvPers misunderstand why PA largely ignores them, in my opinion.
06. Jul 2024, 13:52 (UTC)
4875
83
290
204
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
06. Jul 2024, 20:26 (UTC)
# 1
Largely, what PvPers do and advocate for are different things.
I need to stress this, because the handful of PvPers on the forums advocating for positive changes aren't at fault for the state of PvP - they're caught in the cross-fire. They probably genuinely love the PvP and want to see it shine. It's not their/your fault that, for every PvPer into the amazing ebb and flow of the combat, there are four who play Berserker to win. It's not morally right to do but it is correct to state: a majority of the people who participate in PvP are only there to win.
PvPers are bad about policing toxicity in their own community.
People appear nice and civil on the forums when advocating for changes, but are often engaged in petty back-and-forth elsewhere on the forums. The most common version I've found is screencapping someone playing, say, Shai and using that as an implied argument against anything they have to say about balance. Ironically, this doesn't equally apply when they're saying something the screencapper agrees with, but I digress. Similarly, when you look at /group or Arsha chat, it's almost always full of toxicity of various kinds. Sometimes the toxicity bleeds into other chat channels and they get little resistance from other PvPers when engaging in it.
The conflicting opinions on balance don't help.
Take criticism of Drakania's Awakening in PvE - people think she's OP in PvP and weak in PvE. Berserker's another example where opinions are uniform. Compare that to the plethora of opinions on the Eva/DR changes, which in-game I've seen nothing but positive things about - with the exception of bugs like Ninja losing like 99% of their damage on their Shadow Stomp or Valkyrie's weird hitstun - and which on the forums seem universally vilified. It doesn't help that, here, there's little in the way of proper reasoning for their claims, and often what they say (ex. "these changes did nothing to fix anything", a baseless thing to say with zero work justifying it) are confounded with something else (ex. "special attack evasion is OP, why make these changes but leave special attack evasion alone?", a specific and meaningful criticism) which leads to all the more confusion when discussing the PvP balance of certain classes.
Finally, the class balance PTSD needs to stop.
I don't care how overpowered a class was in the past, if a change or suite of nerfs makes them weak again, you need to acknowledge it. Getting whipped by, say, an Awa DK several months prior and responding to every following post about Awa DK by downvoting it and straw manning people as if they want the class to return to that state? Yeah, you make yourself - and every other PvPer - look bad. Your frustration is valid, but your response to it is immature.
That's all.
Again, I want to make sure people understand: I'm not criticizing most of the people interested in PvP. A lot of y'all are cool. I'm criticizing a very specific subset of people, and if you're offended by my criticisms it would be helpful to take a step back and ask yourself why - if you're exhibiting any of the behaviors here, being in denial about it doesn't help anyone and if you're not then it's not directed at you anyway so there's nothing to worry about.
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
06. Jul 2024, 15:32 (UTC)
# 2
I will just say the hard truth.
PVP in bdo is BAD, no1 really cares if "owned" that guy, besides 1-2 guildies.
BDO is a niche game with relatively few players.
There is NO clout being "good" in BDO nobody cares but the few pvp tryhards.
PVP WAS made so whales and nolifers can dunk on gearlets and feel good about themselves, thats why its so bad in the first place.
You know you are better off playing the popular pvp game, but you invested too much time in BDO you dont want to quit.
On side note, how delusional do you have to be to complain that PA kills off Red Player playstyle? You literally play to harass the customer to get a kick out of it.
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
06. Jul 2024, 20:16 (UTC)
# 3
On: Jul 6, 2024, 15:32 (UTC), Written by Adonaj
I will just say the hard truth.
PVP in bdo is BAD, no1 really cares if "owned" that guy, besides 1-2 guildies.
BDO is a niche game with relatively few players.
There is NO clout being "good" in BDO nobody cares but the few pvp tryhards.
PVP WAS made so whales and nolifers can dunk on gearlets and feel good about themselves, thats why its so bad in the first place.
You know you are better off playing the popular pvp game, but you invested too much time in BDO you dont want to quit.
True.
"On side note, how delusional do you have to be to complain that PA kills off Red Player playstyle? You literally play to harass the customer to get a kick out of it."
Bs. You may not like it but it's what makes the game fun for some players. It's fun both ways. Both players are interacting in a single player game. The mentality that getting attacked is somehow harassment is mind boggling. How is he harassing you? Are you losing 5% efficiency in your hourly earnings? Boo hoo. The most fun this game can offer is the open world player interactions.
Now i know not all people play the game in the same way but i wouldn't suggest removing lifeskill content from this game even if i think its a massive waste of time and extremely boring.
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
07. Jul 2024, 01:25 (UTC)
# 4
On: Jul 6, 2024, 15:32 (UTC), Written by Adonaj
I will just say the hard truth.
PVP in bdo is BAD, no1 really cares if "owned" that guy, besides 1-2 guildies.
BDO is a niche game with relatively few players.
There is NO clout being "good" in BDO nobody cares but the few pvp tryhards.
PVP WAS made so whales and nolifers can dunk on gearlets and feel good about themselves, thats why its so bad in the first place.
You know you are better off playing the popular pvp game, but you invested too much time in BDO you dont want to quit.
On side note, how delusional do you have to be to complain that PA kills off Red Player playstyle? You literally play to harass the customer to get a kick out of it.
They need to study your brain, the mental gymnastics just to shit on pvpers, while ignoring the most active form of pvp is capped/equalized right now... yikes. Maybe I'm just replying to an obvious troll, you got me.
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
07. Jul 2024, 08:13 (UTC)
# 5
On: Jul 6, 2024, 13:52 (UTC), Written by Aisurukitsune
Largely, what PvPers do and advocate for are different things.
I need to stress this, because the handful of PvPers on the forums advocating for positive changes aren't at fault for the state of PvP - they're caught in the cross-fire. They probably genuinely love the PvP and want to see it shine. It's not their/your fault that, for every PvPer into the amazing ebb and flow of the combat, there are four who play Berserker to win. It's not morally right to do but it is correct to state: a majority of the people who participate in PvP are only there to win.
Already it feels like we're approaching a very specific subset of PvPers (and it is a subset, as someone that's run a PvP guild for 7 years), that has somehow stayed around in BDO despite the lack of a competitive environment for some time now. The way you write this, makes me immediately think of only the NA server, as it's PvP state and community are relatively younger (and thus more emotionally invested in winning) than EU.
Now as for the fotm rerollers we all have those, but I always believe PA is to blame for player actions, not the players themselves, if the actions can easily be dissuaded through ingame measures. This is why I advocate against the tagging system, or coupon rerolls. Back in the day, a reroll was an extremely costly endeavour; by extension you were tied to your class, to improve on it skill wise, or to argue for its improvement balance wise. Now, you aren't.
PvPers are bad about policing toxicity in their own community.
People appear nice and civil on the forums when advocating for changes, but are often engaged in petty back-and-forth elsewhere on the forums. The most common version I've found is screencapping someone playing, say, Shai and using that as an implied argument against anything they have to say about balance. Ironically, this doesn't equally apply when they're saying something the screencapper agrees with, but I digress.
You do have to distinguish between banter, light hearted debate, and full blown discussions though. I think the first step for anyone that's attempting to chat with pvpers and understand who they are and how they behave, is knowing their history. Likely, if they're still talking on the forums/discords, they are to some extent insane. Not necessarily in a lock-him-up-in-an-asylum way, but still; they are passionate and dedicated enough to a game, that despite possibly eight years of not receiving a satisfying response, they are willing to discuss the game with randoms. This comes with some consequences to culture:
They're more likely to not take anything seriously that falls outside of their envisioned game environment because they've already spent so much time building it. To take your example, many of us PvPers believe Shai should be deleted. Simple. Deleted. Not nerfed, not reworked. Gone. We also believe that the Shai community (much in the way the karmabombers view pvpers) personify the typical new generation PvEr, that is overly sensitive, oppressive in their game views and hopelessly selfish, as well as clueless on many game aspects.
Additionally, because they've spent so long saying the same same same same same thing feedback wise, the repetitiveness of it all draws out a bit of a memey approach to feedback. We know what we're doing is futile. We do it anyway. Might as well have some fun in the process. This is your typical "content focussed PvP mind state" and, generally, pvpers will attempt to farm "content" in whatever manner possible, including chat PvP. They're that starved for "actual" ingame content. I feel like this also answers your ingame chat PvP point. I should also say that this "lack of decorum" is a newish development, from say 2020. Before that, some PvP guilds generally cared about their image ingame towards the entire community. But since the breakdown of guild relationships and diplo outside of NWs (think removal of gvgs etc), no one cares. And leadership is a skeleton crew in nearly all guilds so they certainly aren't going to care; the entire community moved towards the "resigned salty vet" archetype. You can't police that anymore, in guild or outside.
Similarly, when you look at /group or Arsha chat, it's almost always full of toxicity of various kinds. Sometimes the toxicity bleeds into other chat channels and they get little resistance from other PvPers when engaging in it.
The conflicting opinions on balance don't help.
Take criticism of Drakania's Awakening in PvE - people think she's OP in PvP and weak in PvE. Berserker's another example where opinions are uniform. Compare that to the plethora of opinions on the Eva/DR changes, which in-game I've seen nothing but positive things about - with the exception of bugs like Ninja losing like 99% of their damage on their Shadow Stomp or Valkyrie's weird hitstun - and which on the forums seem universally vilified. It doesn't help that, here, there's little in the way of proper reasoning for their claims, and often what they say (ex. "these changes did nothing to fix anything", a baseless thing to say with zero work justifying it) are confounded with something else (ex. "special attack evasion is OP, why make these changes but leave special attack evasion alone?", a specific and meaningful criticism) which leads to all the more confusion when discussing the PvP balance of certain classes.
People are wrong. People are biased. People will respond not entirely in true faith. But it's not our job to find balanced states for classes. It's our job to provide feedback regarding changes. PA gets to do the fun task of figuring out what states are or aren't balanced (kek).
The issue most of us have with PAs changes isn't that they're "BAD". It's that they're short sighted and incomplete, and usually receive no further support. We received one of the biggest mechanical (technically not mechanical but you get the idea) changes in the history of the game, and we knew beforehand PA would fk something up. We go on glabs, we test what's fked. We tell them "this is fked". It releases onto the live servers, still fked. And when something comes onto live fked, we know it's going to remain fked until the rng wheel spins it onto a patch note someday. Could be next week, could be in a year or three. This is quite demotivating. Doubly so as we sometimes don't know if a change is intended, a bug, or even subject to change at all. In that context, a pvper is unlikely to consider an issue from multiple angles. He doesn't even know if it IS an issue. But he knows it impacts himself in some manner, and is unlikely to go away. Best to make a post about it now. Best to argue as loud as possible in the hopes someone sees it. Best to make VERY SURE that it sounds VERY BAD so PA maaaaaaybe, fixes it. These are traits that are encouraged by such a feedback system.
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
07. Jul 2024, 09:41 (UTC)
# 6
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
Already it feels like we're approaching a very specific subset of PvPers (and it is a subset, as someone that's run a PvP guild for 7 years), that has somehow stayed around in BDO despite the lack of a competitive environment for some time now. The way you write this, makes me immediately think of only the NA server, as it's PvP state and community are relatively younger (and thus more emotionally invested in winning) than EU.
Yep, this is very possible, and it is just a subset of people - it's not all PvPers or anything! I also only play on the NA server so I can only speak to my experience there, it might be and probably is different elsewhere.
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
Now as for the fotm rerollers we all have those, but I always believe PA is to blame for player actions, not the players themselves, if the actions can easily be dissuaded through ingame measures. This is why I advocate against the tagging system, or coupon rerolls. Back in the day, a reroll was an extremely costly endeavour; by extension you were tied to your class, to improve on it skill wise, or to argue for its improvement balance wise. Now, you aren't.
Yeah I agree, a lot of the systems feel tailor-made to encourage the worse type of behavior that makes PvP worse for everybody involved. It's essentially a self-imposed challenge to not have a PvP FotM class tagged/fueled, and since I play one class and one class alone I'm pretty much drowning in useless exchange coupons that I don't want.
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
You do have to distinguish between banter, light hearted debate, and full blown discussions though. I think the first step for anyone that's attempting to chat with pvpers and understand who they are and how they behave, is knowing their history. Likely, if they're still talking on the forums/discords, they are to some extent insane. Not necessarily in a lock-him-up-in-an-asylum way, but still; they are passionate and dedicated enough to a game, that despite possibly eight years of not receiving a satisfying response, they are willing to discuss the game with randoms. This comes with some consequences to culture:
I think this is where we come to any real disagreement, honestly; yeah, a lot of it is banter, but when it becomes difficult to distinguish "banter" and toxicity because they function effectively the same - just to make people mad and fill chat channels up with "ironic" back-and-forth - I'd say it doesn't matter, does it? If the banter's doing exactly what real toxicity would, I don't think it's any different! I will say though, I appreciate the fact that people are at least willing to talk about balance even if/when they do it poorly, and the PvP community's good about that.
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
They're more likely to not take anything seriously that falls outside of their envisioned game environment because they've already spent so much time building it. To take your example, many of us PvPers believe Shai should be deleted. Simple. Deleted. Not nerfed, not reworked. Gone. We also believe that the Shai community (much in the way the karmabombers view pvpers) personify the typical new generation PvEr, that is overly sensitive, oppressive in their game views and hopelessly selfish, as well as clueless on many game aspects.
I feel like this argument kind of cuts both ways though, doesn't it? Nobody advocates for things they believe in because other people believe in it, they advocate because they think it's right - whether it is right or not is a separate question, and often the one people ask when they say that. PvPers advocate for things within their interest, as do PvPers and Shai players!
I never think outright removing a playstyle is the answer but Shai's essentially mandatory in group PvP and incredibly useful in group PvE to the point that not having one is thought of as gimping yourself. I think this goes back to the first thing you've said: due to how easy it is to reroll gear, the main PvE weaknesses of the Shai that supposedly justify how strong they are don't really matter which makes them a lot stronger than they're supposed to be.
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
Additionally, because they've spent so long saying the same same same same same thing feedback wise, the repetitiveness of it all draws out a bit of a memey approach to feedback. We know what we're doing is futile. We do it anyway. Might as well have some fun in the process. This is your typical "content focussed PvP mind state" and, generally, pvpers will attempt to farm "content" in whatever manner possible, including chat PvP. They're that starved for "actual" ingame content. I feel like this also answers your ingame chat PvP point. I should also say that this "lack of decorum" is a newish development, from say 2020. Before that, some PvP guilds generally cared about their image ingame towards the entire community. But since the breakdown of guild relationships and diplo outside of NWs (think removal of gvgs etc), no one cares. And leadership is a skeleton crew in nearly all guilds so they certainly aren't going to care; the entire community moved towards the "resigned salty vet" archetype. You can't police that anymore, in guild or outside.
Yeah, true, I just don't think it's at all helpful I guess - especially when it spills over to overt toxicity. I started (relatively) recently so I can't speak to how the game was in 2020, but I 100% wish more PvP-centric guilds cared about cultivating groups of fun-loving PvPers instead of saying as much but, when you join, it's all 'banter' non-stop. It's effectively just the thing people join 'no drama' guilds to avoid, you know?
As for being a dissatisfied veteran? That's valid. I don't think the way people express it uniformly is valid, but the feeling itself? Yeah. I have a general tendency to dislike pessimism because it's unproductive, though, and I think giving up on meaningful, structured critique and/or relegating it to the realm of memes perpetuates the problem because it makes it even more difficult to find meaning, thought-out criticism.
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
People are wrong. People are biased. People will respond not entirely in true faith. But it's not our job to find balanced states for classes. It's our job to provide feedback regarding changes. PA gets to do the fun task of figuring out what states are or aren't balanced (kek).
I can't argue with that!
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
The issue most of us have with PAs changes isn't that they're "BAD". It's that they're short sighted and incomplete, and usually receive no further support. We received one of the biggest mechanical (technically not mechanical but you get the idea) changes in the history of the game, and we knew beforehand PA would fk something up. We go on glabs, we test what's fked. We tell them "this is fked". It releases onto the live servers, still fked. And when something comes onto live fked, we know it's going to remain fked until the rng wheel spins it onto a patch note someday. Could be next week, could be in a year or three. This is quite demotivating. Doubly so as we sometimes don't know if a change is intended, a bug, or even subject to change at all. In that context, a pvper is unlikely to consider an issue from multiple angles. He doesn't even know if it IS an issue. But he knows it impacts himself in some manner, and is unlikely to go away. Best to make a post about it now. Best to argue as loud as possible in the hopes someone sees it. Best to make VERY SURE that it sounds VERY BAD so PA maaaaaaybe, fixes it. These are traits that are encouraged by such a feedback system.
Yep. It's an issue a lot of MMOs face for some reason, with one of the most recent examples being how EVE handled the new expansion. I have no idea why it's necessary, as internal data can only take you so far due to being obfuscated by a metric ton of different factors. PA (and the many other MMO companies) that do stuff like this are effectively nuking player morale for no reason. I don't blame people for feeling powerless and overstating the case to get some attention to an issue, but I feel like this would just make PA rely even more on internal data and less on community data, right?
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
07. Jul 2024, 10:57 (UTC)
# 7
On: Jul 6, 2024, 20:16 (UTC), Written by Findubar
Bs. You may not like it but it's what makes the game fun for some players. It's fun both ways. Both players are interacting in a single player game. The mentality that getting attacked is somehow harassment is mind boggling. How is he harassing you? Are you losing 5% efficiency in your hourly earnings? Boo hoo. The most fun this game can offer is the open world player interactions.
Now i know not all people play the game in the same way but i wouldn't suggest removing lifeskill content from this game even if i think its a massive waste of time and extremely boring.
lmao, clearly PA agrees with me. You life in a delulu world. Nobody really like you red players, you gank some1 and runway when it gets hot. Good riddance!
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
07. Jul 2024, 13:56 (UTC)
# 8
On: Jul 7, 2024, 10:57 (UTC), Written by Adonaj
lmao, clearly PA agrees with me. You life in a delulu world. Nobody really like you red players, you gank some1 and runway when it gets hot. Good riddance!
(Yes I recognise BDO Steam is a marginal % of the total pop)
If resource-driven competition works in continually wiped game such as Rust, why shouldnt it in an mmorpg with a combat system as rich as BDO?
Der Verfasser hat den Inhalt gelöscht.
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
08. Jul 2024, 03:31 (UTC)
# 10
On: Jul 7, 2024, 08:13 (UTC), Written by Helegnes
You do have to distinguish between banter, light hearted debate, and full blown discussions though. I think the first step for anyone that's attempting to chat with pvpers and understand who they are and how they behave, is knowing their history. Likely, if they're still talking on the forums/discords, they are to some extent insane. Not necessarily in a lock-him-up-in-an-asylum way, but still; they are passionate and dedicated enough to a game, that despite possibly eight years of not receiving a satisfying response, they are willing to discuss the game with randoms. This comes with some consequences to culture:
I Swear I am not insane.....
I am however very invested with this game, after 8 years its hard to let it go..
To be honest here I have not had the best of luck leveling gear.. some reason i believe my account is cursed... for example I was at my 18th attempt on my Debo neck with a 340 fs before it went Pen, my belt and earrings are following the same path. Personally, everything I have has never been free... been paid through hard work in the field and dropping some $$$ in game or when i had more time early on i spent a lot of time grinding.
Through the years in the open world.. grinding, interacting with others fighting for grind spots at Orc's just like back in the day desert fogans.... What kept pushing me were the fights.. the GVG's the Lil loudmouths with the big guilds between there legs Cuz yah know a siege players pride after getting stomped by a no name rando results in 20 showing up to teach you a lesson.
Now here i sit... finally after 8 years with the biggest upgrades happening over the past year and a half to get me to a 762 current GS.. I am now considered the "Last of the Breed '' <---- for those of you that still read books and like louis l'amour would be a good read for you.
I had dreamed of the days when I would finally have my gear Though currently not finished... was pushing to finally be on par with my peers... Be finally able to fight in an equal footing against those that over the years ran their mouths.. talked shit called there 100 guildies and alliances to come help beat down 4 or 5 players from a rando guild..
FINALLY Even after i get zerged by 20 or 30 at garmoth .... people would say ouch that guy hurts or WTF i cant kill him he tanky... finally my gear meets my skill level
Then i woke up..........
After 8 years it took me to reach the end game top gear.... to have it all come crashing down last summer.. a year ago after PA and ole Jayee kim destroyed every aspect of PVP in BDO.... to wear even though there are not many left in my guild we would still fight in OW and have 5 or 6 decs up... 8 years or work and now all thats left is RBF... BA and Arsha were you have Main arsha PVE clowns crying about PVP<----- this is no joke YES ON ARSHA PVE CLOWNS CRYING ABOUT PVP....
You may find some rando with 3 or 4 guildies or some disgruntled group of NW or Siege show up to take out there frustrations of NW cuz everyone is pissed about that.. but outside of that you cant find players in OW anymore...
So yes I AM PISSED OFF AND A BIT PENT UP!!!!!!!!
It happens to be one of the worst things you can do to someone... a PVP'er that literally is having the main reason he stayed in the game... fought for gear... Pushed.. staying competitive finally makes it to the end to have it all ripped away...
It is not fun jumping into a grind zone flagged on arsha to listen in local "man i am just trying to grind leave me alone".................. literally all of you can kiss my Ass....
There literally is no reason to play BDO anymore other than log in rewards and dead content... The core of the game got destroyed... when you added the 13 hours of marni... elvia realm.. and separated all the players so there is no more interaction...
This game turned into a RP'rs delight... with a bunch of Femme don't wanna be touched cry babies...
So yah i come in here to give a bunch of shit to other players that have caused this... i hope BDO recovers.. I hope PA wakes up and fixes some of the PVP features.. but i am not holding my breath just makes me not want to do much and if some game comes out that can beat BDO's combat system i am gone... that simple so far we are SOL with other games but the clock is ticking...
If you think by clicking the down vote button hurts my feeling... LOL its gonna be a long hot day in hell for you, i really could care less.
I am complete equal opportunity here..
I hate you PVE clowns, cant stand you Pacifist's...
I give a crap about streamers they were the most complicite in all of this
cant stand Siege or NW guilds 90% of you were the problem to begin with ... Perma Red players that quit can F off ..
those that Go Red and cry cuz they beat up baby seals are the worst sort...
if i had the opportunity to turn every guild permenently red i would just so i can enjoy myself....
So in short outside of those few PVP'rs left in the forums that get what i saying i pretty much hate you all ......
14
586
Lv 66
Seridon
Antworten