I'd like if they'd do faction PvP like Tera, Archeage, WoW, or GW2. But I think one of the reasons PvP fails in this game is because there's no 'team work' there's no 'unity' like in the other games. The other games had the 'Holy Trinity' and you really had to work together and call out 'plays' similar to American Football, lol. This game doesn't do that, it's 'every man for himself' very cuthroat. Even when you're PvPing in a group. Classes in this game are meant to work against each other rather than with each other. Even guilds are just mercenary groups at the end of the day (you pay people to be in your guild) there's no trade, so you can't even help your guildies that way. Even rift bosses are solo now when you used to be able to do them in a party. The way this game is designed, it's 100% intentional. It was designed purposely for players to play against each other. It was flawed from the very beginning because of that design, rather than take responsibilty for a flawed system PA instead blamed the community and divided them further and cracked down on all forms of PvP. They're the reason for the toxitity and hostility between players. They need to make MAJOR changes to the game's overall design because it's not working for what they want it to be now (a friendly, helpful community). They need a system that encourages players to work together for a common goal in both PvP and PvE. They should also allow trade (like in other games). Allow guildies to actually help each other out. That honestly should be the key focus, overhauling the games design to be more co-op in ALL forms of play. That would encourage people to play the game and play longer. Rather than coming out with shallow content or breadcrumbs (FOTM classes and grindzones). People hop on this game long enough to play the 'new' class and as soon as they've played it for a few weeks they're back off until the next. That's honestly why I hate the FOTM class formula, because that alone damages the game. It's like trying to distract a kid by giving them another shiny new toy when they have dozens of old toys of the EXACT same thing, collecting dust and cobwebs in the corner...

What do you think systems are? Rules constitute systems because systems follow those rules and are predictable because of it. You're making a distinction without a difference! I agree, though, that how systems work - the rules they're made of - in BDO's case are flawed, especially when it comes to PvP and discouraging abuse. I think we're agreeing here, no?

I said, explicitly, that PA should develop systems better -- in the effort to mitigate toxic behavior -- because they, simply, are not good at that.  At least when it comes to keeping what made BDO the unique MMORPG it used to be while still being relevant.  My issue with you is not your arguments themselves, per se, but rather, how you word things.  It really comes off like you're pitting all the blame on the players themselves rather than the developer.  Here is your title, some of your subtitles, and main points:

"PvPers misunderstand why PA largely ignores them, in my opinion.",

"Largely, what PvPers do and advocate for are different things.",

"PvPers are bad about policing toxicity in their own community.",

"The conflicting opinions on balance don't help.",

"I don't care how overpowered a class was in the past, if a change or suite of nerfs makes them weak again, you need to acknowledge it."

All of these points are targeted at the PLAYER, not the dev.  That's my issue.  You said you criticised the devs in your OP.  Well, where is it?  Is it how they balance classes?  No kidding, Sherlock - EVERY GAME MULITPLAYER GAME DEVELOPER STRUGGLES WITH CLASS BALANCE.  That's your only critque of the devs?  Class balance?

Your whole OP is full of comments telling PVPers how bad they are.  I do not see one thing in your OP that directly addresses the dev's shortcomings rather than some mild light jabs regarding questionable class balance changes.

That's not what gaslighting is. I get that modern use of the word has clouded the definition like with the word "literally" but I wrote out my opinion on antagonism from the PvP community and why it's not helpful before you ever responded to me. Do I think I've guessed wrong at your motives and the truth behind the matter? Not at all, but it's just, like, my opinion, man, that a lot of yours are based in burnout.

Gaslighting is telling someone how they feel / what they think, manipulating them into doubting their own experiences.  By insinuating that I somehow, 1) Do not love BDO, 2) Am burned out, 3) Club baby seals, and saying that's not gaslighting is a straight up lie.

My issues are based on developer decisons.  IDK how many times, how many ways, I need to say that.  Like, bro, you keep saying, "I said this, I said that", but fail to see what other people are saying?  You're entitled to your opinion, even if you're wrong - it's not burnout.  It's game developement.  I am starting to see past PA's shady tactics when developing BDO.  They are forcing more Crons onto us, this has been ramping up slowly and we have reached an apex unlike any we've seen before.  The gear treadmill is coming to a halt -- there's less meaningfully tangible reason to gear up.  Build diversity is dwindled to an exponentially horrifying degree where everyone runs, pretty much, the same cookie cutter builds -- and these cookie cutter builds, the ones that require this highest Cron sink (go figure).

It's not "burnout" bro.  I love grinder games.  I, more so, love open-ended, sandboxy, open world based games -- a game BDO was.  It, simply, isn't anymore.  PA sold me an apple and I got a tomato, basically.  That's my gripe, understand?  It isn't "burnout", sheesh.  Bold assumption.  But dead wrong.  Now, please stop with telling me how I feel and stop telling me what my experiences are, because that's, literally, gaslighting.

Okay? I think your opinion's valid even if I disagree with some of it. I was just clarifying why one specific claim you made about their financial status isn't what you say it is. Anecdotally, I hang out in the Season servers and see dozens of people at the CM alone in Velia. There are 37 non-Season, non-Olivia servers and I'm not surprised it's dilute; it wouldn't hurt to trim the insane number down a bit.

But also, the fact that you play on Arsha[?] and very few people are there? That's evidence that most people do not, in fact, want PvP. You're a minority.

I usually play on normal channel because I grind > anything else in this game.  I am a PVXer.  I love PVE AND PVP, not sure if that concept is foreign to you.  I mind my own business, I don't grind over people, I look for my own quiet place to grind and farm up whatever I need.  I go to Arsha when I want PVP -- I don't go there for the drop buff.  I go to Arsha for PVP.  I also go to RBF for PVP as well, or AoS.  Velia CM is dead on normal channels.  On the weekends I see the most people.  But, usually, it feels so empty.  Maybe it's because I've seen when BDO was not an instance-fest.  When BDO was at it's peak population.  Open world, however, unequivocally dead.

You're right, so I decided to educate myself on it. CoD is far from having the official viewership of even DotA2 let alone LoL or even Minecraft of all things. It's comparable to FIFA at best. Ironically, all of the aforementioned games sans FIFA and CoD have friendlier communities, with DotA2 and League in particular going through an absolutely massive crackdown on toxicity. If it was so innate, why is it so important to police? If it's so innate, why is it so easy to change? If it's innate, why do better systems produce better results? The answer to all three is "It's not innate."

CoD, historically, is one of (key words) the most competitive games.  IDK if you played games during MW and MW2 eras.  Game was super popualted and popping off.  Better games have come out since then, but CoD retains a firm hold on competitiveness built into its game design.  Viewership has NOTHING to do with whether it's a compettive game or not, that's called a deflection (a logical fallacy).  So yeah, you said you don't know much of CoD to say anything about it -- well, when you say you don't have anything to say about it because you lack knowledge, why say something about it right after?  You make no sense, dude.

You can't even faily compare these games to BDO.  DOTA, Minecraft, LoL, are all, very, VERY different games compared to BDO.  BDO is an open world PVX sandbox MMO that features non-instanced, open-to-anyone grindzones with limited resources.  DOTA and LoL are instanced MOBAS.  The main difference here is controlling toxcity in MOBA really boils down to chat interactions and people who obviously and intentionally troll their teams (aside from scripting, all games police game-file hackers).  In BDO, toxcity is not 2 or 3 fold.  It's multilayered -- there's so, so many ways to be toxic.  You can be toxic via PVP AND PVE.  That alone says how complex the issue of toxciity is in BDO when you can PK someone AND stay on top of someone else's toon and last hit all the mobs they're trying to grind.

Toxic players exist and will exist in every multiplayer game that features degrees of competition.  This is a fact and to deny that is pure cope and delusion.

You're acting like I disagree with you. I don't. I don't know why I have to keep reiterating the fact that I agree PA has taken the most destructive possible option when dealing with OWPvP. I'm critical of how a number of PvPers behave for advocating for things I agree with. I don't uncritically support a group of people just because they agree with me.

I'm sure all this talk about PA developing better methods of policing toxicity, the criticism of how poorly they've done it, the entire discussion about ways to work around the fact they've done it poorly, and more is me "putting the weight of the world solely on the shoulders of the player" because I'm critical of a handful of aspects that (judging by your last paragraph) you and a handful of toxic people can't help yourselves with.

Bro, your whole post reaks of blaming the PVP community for the state of PVP right now.  Rather than telling the devs that they did a poor job in compensating PVP enjoyers with good PVP content, your whole post reaks of, "This is why PA hates PVPers -- because PVP enjoyer BAD".  Just read some responses here agreeing with you -- all saying the same exact stuff.

There's a level of double-think needed to acknowledge that PvP MMOs are niche and yet claim the game's dying because it's not appealing to that crowd. Regardless, I'm already getting a bit snarky because you somehow pin me as placing the blame solely on the players when I acknowledge the validity of PvPers' complaints in the OP. I guess you missed that, or you forgot that you weren't responding to opinion #297 but mine?

How is that double speak when the two are directly correlated?  PVP MMO = niche (meaning lower general interest) means the game is dying (because PVP in MMOs have lower general interest).  Nice thing about BDO?  IT WAS NEVER A PVP MMO.  BDO was ALWAYS PVX.  PVEVP.  SANDBOX.  Understand? 

I firmly believe BDO could have gone on and thrived as a PVX sandbox open world MMO if proper development took place.  I believe, if better systems were introduced, like extending Marni's Realm, it could have alleviated PVE enjoyer's issues with this game design while keeping in tact what PVP enjoyers loved about the open world.  Spontaneous content.  Player-driven content.  Meaningful player interactions.  Tangible meaning to gering up and skilling up.  Repping your guild.  Making a name for yourself.  IDK maybe I'm just old school.  But player interaction and making a name for yourself are key things for the MMORPG genre.  Now, BDO is more like a solo instanced PVE grinder than anything.  Bought an apple, got a tomato.

While I remain thankful that I got to experience BDO as it used to be and simultaneously saddened that the game took a 180 degree turn in game design, I still have love for the game.  I love my Sorc.  I love PVEing on my Scholar.  I love riding my T10 in the open world.  But I will not stop voicing my opinion either, no matter how negative, and I won't stp calling out people who take a dump on other players like your post clerly does.

That's funny. I invite you to look at the front page of the forums - general and class discussion alike - and scroll a few pages. What's that quote, "If you knew how stupid that is, you wouldn't have said it"? Yeah. People that like the game are busy playing it. Roughly 70-80% of complaints on the forums are about PvP.

IDK whatever man.  I'd appreciate if you stopped dumping on your fellow game community members and hold the devs more accountable, but I won't hold my breath.  It's clear to me that, in all your self-righteous "opinions" and "critiques", you'd rather dump on the community.  That's all I really gotta say in regards to your OP.

I totally support you, even though by stopping posting or liking on the forum, I believe that 99% of the PvP community in BDO who have played this game for a long time support you! We hope this gets resolved; if not, we just hope to see each other again in the next game that will have a decent PvP combat system.

Probably because I'm not talking about questionable changes on PA's side, but how people criticize those changes. Fancy, that: the context of a statement changes what it means. It's not my job to pander to your every insecurity before I say "Yeah, but also, maybe don't make it worse please?" because that's what's known as 'whataboutism' and the 'what about...?' in this case is off-topic.

Again, I just think you're lying - or a better way to say it, I think you're not being honest with your assessment. You can disagree - it's not my problem, and that's your opinion anyway - but claiming having my own opinion on your character is somehow gaslighting you is a tomato in the mirror thing. If you're not who/how I think you are, that's for you to sort out, but so far you haven't changed my mind.

The open world in 2020 BDO was also dead by this logic. What you're describing is people ganking and fighting over specific top-tier grind spots, and I wouldn't really call "u no hit Lv56" and "ghillie suit or AFK" top-tier open-world PvP gameplay.

Compared to LoL and DotA2 and co., even back in the MW2 era, it was tiny.

That aside, yes - in many of the above games it's a lot easier to police toxicity because there are maybe one or two layers to it and in BDO you have a multitude of different layers all relative to some different system in the game, ie. guilds, PvE, PvP, grind zones, and so on. It's not as easy to effectively control toxicity in a game like BDO.

No, it isn't. If you'd have read it, you'd know that. If you'd have read any of my first-page replies, you'd know that. If you'd have taken a moment to think about why I carve out exceptions for, quote, "a majority of PvPers" cuz', quote, "y'all are cool" you'd know that. That not enough for you? I don't need your permission to post here, and if your argument is that I didn't do the thing I clearly did then I'm in the clear.

A supermajority of PvP MMOs were PvPvE. Unless we're talking about competitive games again, this distinction is meaningless; most of Albion is PvE to set up for PvP, most of EVE is PvE to set up for PvP, most of Wizardry Online was PvE to set up for PvP, most of Darkfall, Mortal Online, etc. were PvE to set up for PvP, and so on. A lot of your time was spent fighting Environmental threats instead of Players.

Yeah, I agree, but that's not what this post is about.

Good. You don't need my permission or something to make your opinion/agreement/disagreement known, nor should you. Part of the entire motive of this post is to help the more toxic PvPers understand why their toxicity undermines the things they want. If it doesn't apply to you, then good - it means you're literally not part of the problem.

Not denying how critical I am of the devs is a nice place to start. The fact I'm not uncritically supporting people who make the problem worse =/= zero opposition to the cause of the problem.

There is no conversation nor good faith discussion to be had with someone who is okay with gaslighting. 

When you say BS like, "your love of the game ran out long ago and it's your investment in your gear that kept you going.", make negative insinuations about how I play the game and my moral character by saying, If your joy was in 'clubbing baby seals' (as one avid response put it) then I have no pity for you", " was what broke the camel's back because it hit you the one place you feel it mattered: the time you invested.  You predate every free PEN BS or Sov weapon by years and/or hundreds of dollars", "That emptiness and lack of meaning you speak of is inherent to every MMO, especially when you get to the cap. It's called "burnout" and Faker of LoL fame experiences it too. This is compounded by the consequence of your gear never really becoming obsolete: you eventually run out of ways to tangibly progress beyond embracing the pointlessness and doing what you find fun in the moment." -- every shred of an honest discussion can go right out the window. 

You know NOTHING about how I feel, how I choose to play the game, and the things I believe in, so -- in the most respectful way, SHUT UP about telling ME HOW I FEEL / PERCEIVE THINGS.  Not only are you so off the mark, so totally wrong, you seem to be content in believing whatever delusions and self-convinced notions you have about someone else.  IDGAF if you don't believe me when I tell you you're dead wrong.  All that does is reinforce to me just how stubborn, closed minded, dehumanizing, and self-righteously biased you are.  Which is an impression I got from reading your OP, but now, it's pretty much solidified by your own action.

You're free to have an "opinion" -- whatever.  What you DON'T have unrestricted freedom to do, if you're trying to have a decent conversation, is NOT to make these stupid, over the top, highly stigmatized, overly generalized, highly discriminatory, ASSUMPTIONS about someone else.  That's called BAD FAITH.  And this is where decent conversation ends.

You want to get on some moral high horse and virtue signal?  You have every right to do so.  I'm just calling you out on your crusade to crucify community members.  You might think you're helping, but you aren't.  Are players toxic?  At times, yes.  Can the PvP community communicate better?  Obviously.  That's the thing with posts like yours -- they always state the most obvious things.  What's not obvious, as in how PA can be shown to be incompetent in circumventing said bad behavior in a way that keeps players who enjoy PvP happy, isn't for the player to be blamed.  It's on the devs.  Full stop.  This isn't whataboutism.  It's countering your take with a big, fat slap of reality, right across the face. 

Case in point:

Oh, let me guess.  Blame PvPers, right, because they're so toxic and can't police themselves, then that means PA cannot satisfy this segment of the community.  Get TF outta here with that mess.  Again, your whole original post reeks of "player bad".  Virtually zero contructive input, virtually all finger pointing at fellow community members, diverting attention away from people who have the most control in the outcome of the product -- the DEVELOPERS.

Well, that's like, just his opinion, man.

Opinons are fine.  These statements are FAR from "opinion".

'When you say BS like, "your love of the game ran out long ago and it's your investment in your gear that kept you going.", make negative insinuations about how I play the game and my moral character by saying, If your joy was in 'clubbing baby seals' (as one avid response put it) then I have no pity for you", " was what broke the camel's back because it hit you the one place you feel it mattered: the time you invested.  You predate every free PEN BS or Sov weapon by years and/or hundreds of dollars", "That emptiness and lack of meaning you speak of is inherent to every MMO, especially when you get to the cap. It's called "burnout" and Faker of LoL fame experiences it too. This is compounded by the consequence of your gear never really becoming obsolete: you eventually run out of ways to tangibly progress beyond embracing the pointlessness and doing what you find fun in the moment." -- every shred of an honest discussion can go right out the window."

Copy pasted from my edit.  That's gaslighting.  And if it's not, then it is so close you can feel its body heat.

I think we have different definitions of "opinions!"

The entire pvp is now only in AoS and nowhere else nowadays. Even nodewars are like a thing in the past. On EU entire pvp guilds stopped doing nodewars and I have not heard a single positive thing about new NW to this day. Even non-pvp guilds began noticing the bad structure of them i believe. Nodes are empty. Everything else is dead.