+1 for nerfing awakened sages op disappearing circus act. yall were WAY too op for a good time so good luck with your endeavors

thanks?

To keep it concise, this forum post from this person is generally what majority of sage mains think and want for the class moving forward.
To reiterate. 

1. majority of sage mains acknowledge his damage is to high on the lower end ap wise. (and would prefer a nerf to this over survivability nerfs)
2. majority of sage mains also acknlowedge the accuracy being to high. (and would also prefer a nerf to this over surviviability nerfs) 
3. majority of sages however do not accept a survivability nerf to this extent. 

Those who disagree are typically the vocal minority, within that vocal minority, a large majority of those people
1. Do not play the class, therefore they do not fundamentally know exactly what is wrong with the class or the kit without outside information telling them. 
2. They also tend to be very biased to the point where using logic and fact with them is just not possible. i.e very simple minded, typically only using their personal feelings on the matter and not capable of being objective/logical. 
3. They also tend to be very meme heavy about their take/feedback therefore that particular meme feedback cannot and should not be taken serious. 
4. They also are forgetting about the HUGE class rework starting later this month that sage will not be apart of. 
(which will be BUFFING the og classes to bring them up to par with the newer classes such as sage, due to the power creep with the newer classes vs the older classes.)
Not my words, if you have some type of opinion thinking nerfs will happen instead of buffs with your tin foil hat on.
Take it up with PA, they are the ones that blatantly said what is in parentheses live on air. 

I could type loads of more points about the vocal minority, but honestly it'd just be beating a dead horse. 
The point is also very clear so I don't think I need to elaborate further. 

And how exactly are you determining that people that disagree are the vocal minority? How can the OP, one poster, be the representative of a majority of people while the posts that disagree is immediately discarded as part of a vocial minority? 

I can tell you right now, no matter what you think, a huge majority of people agree with the nerfs that is going to Sages. I can almost also certainly tell you that an overwhelming majority of people that think that this nerf is undeserved are also Sage mains. 

Also, don't take it from me, but I'm pretty sure even the Sage community is split on trying to keep iframe spam because even they realize how broken it is.

Also, to counter all of your points:

1. Why do you have to play a class to know what is wrong with the kit? If you play the game and against the class enough along with reading up the numbers, you can easily deduce what's wrong with a class. You don't have to be certain class elitist to know the class, else every class will scream for buffs endlessly.

2. And it's not biased when all the people that seem to think the nerf is undeserved also happen to be Sage players? Even the poster himself stated that he is biased. 

3. And people that are against the nerf isn't meme heavy, and every single one of their posts are to taken seriously? lol a majority of their post can be summed to you dont play the class you dont get to talk which is dogwater.

4. Yes and a buff to Sage's post nerf level would be fine, while a buff to Sage's pre nerf level is not fine. 

Your points are, contrary to your belief, very biased towards Sage players and you really don't seem to see that though it probably isn't your fault. All class mains has the mentality of the grass is greener on the other side and my class is okay and don't need a nerf. 

Firstly, I'd like to point out something that you did there when you said "how exactly are you determining that people that disagree are the vocal minority?"

yet later make your own assumption of the same caliber with

"I can tell you right now, no matter what you think, a huge majority of people agree with the nerfs that is going to Sages. I can almost also certainly tell you that an overwhelming majority of people that think that this nerf is undeserved are also Sage mains." 

Somewhat blatant hypocrisy.

Anyways, ignoring that initial segment I'd like to respond to your bullet points stated afterwards.

1.) Most people who complain about the class never actually takes the time to sit down and read the numbers of a class, and learn the exact in's and out's of a class that allows the class to perform the way it does. Whether that be under performing or over performing. The problem with this is, most people who do not play the class will spread false information freely and openly amongst the community. Which in turn leads to a class getting nerfed in such a way that is not effecient and does not target what actually causes the class to over perform so heavily. Which leads to more nerfs down the line, it's a cycle that ends with a class that was once considered strong being reduced to a near unplayable state. (Like archer and Musa comparatively.)

2.) The fact that sage players believe the nerf is undeserved =/= to a clear bias in all cases.

In my case, yes I am biased. Although, even in my case I do agree that the class should be nerfed. Just not in the way it's being nerfed currently, as I believe (as I mentioned before) that these nerfs do not actually target what makes the class over perform, so the community will not be satisfied. This will lead to more nerfs down the line which will eventually lead to the class becoming unplayable in most scenarios. We've seen it happen before many times.

3.) I think that's a horribly ill-guided assumption to believe that every post wishing for sage to be nerfed comes from an individual that both fully understands what makes the class strong, as well as wants the class nerfed in a manner that does not kill the class outright.  Most posts both here in the forums as well as reddit (and you can see these examples yourself) are made purely from spite, and only aim for the classes community to be harmed in the form of nerfs. They do not take into consideration any knowledge of the class other than the prior mentioned false information touted by other members of the community. It's an echo chamber that serves only one purpose, which is to get the class harmed in whatever way possible no matter what happens afterwards.  Even the reddit mod team themselves actively remove posts that are seen as "pro-sage". 

4.) On paper, this idea is fine. Although in reality, we know that PA very, VERY, rarily revisits classes that they've destroyed in the past, and if they do, it's even more rare that the changes they make actually benefit the class in any substantial way. 

Overall, I think giving sage such a huge overall mechanic changing nerf while also planning to completely re-design every class up to archer later on this year was an extremely poor and hastly made decision that should not have been made. 

Should they have lowered his damage and accuracy? yes. but trying to debilitate him to the point that you believe he'll be "on par" with the classes you're about to completely renovate and buff? Silly really. 

I'm a hypocrit... because I asked him how he's determining that 1. your post is majority and 2. people that disagree with the sage nerfs are the minority? You have to be trolling if you really believe that a minority of players disagree with the nerf. You might be confused thinking that he's talking about majority/minority of SAGE mains, when in reality the first point in his "who disagree" sections outright involves everyone.

His statements are at best unverifiable opinions that are biased to a fault.

The statements I made are generally accepted statements at worse- everyone agrees with the nerf, even the sage mains themselves though they don't agree with the extent. Overwhelming amount of people that disagree with the nerfs are also sage mains is also very much accepted, unless you want to somehow pull out a population of the game that would defend the state of sage other than sages themselves.

If you want to still keep talking about hypocrisy be my guest, but please justify why and how you think that saying that one post is majority while dismissing the opposition as the minority is on the same level as pointing out generally accepted statements.

To the points

1. While one or two complains about a class is normal and expected since people like to complain about what a class has, when everyone complains about a class then there's something wrong with the class, not the people. We have all agreed that sage is not balanced and we all agree so because it's BLATANTLY obvious what it is. Anyone that has pvped would realize how over loaded his entire kit is, having the best aspects of every class combined. 

If anything it's the sage mains giving out misleading information, like saying how "insanely" squishy their class is while having the literally highest base evasions in the game just because they lack a defense buff which can be fixed with an add-on. 

What does get mislead in the discussions isn't what makes a class OP, but rather the numbers and the mechanics BEHIND what make a class OP. Do people think that the iframe can be spammed without anything? Sure, and it would be right to point out that you have to use a skill in between. Does it make a difference in the grand scheme of things? No, since the iframe is still spammed.

I thought we were past the point of determining what made the class OP since it's stated everywhere and even the sages agree. It's what aspects should be nerfed that we're discussing, which still invalidates his points.

2. All I am saying is that it's rather hypocritical that he posted that the people that are for the nerfs are heavily biased. If you agree that this point is useless because both sides are hypocritical, we can go past it or we can continue to talk about how biased the people against the nerfs are with the only people that are against it being sage mains themselves. The joke "oh the succ wizard rerollers are going to have to find a new class after sage nerfs" isn't made for no reason.

3. And It's horribly ill-guided assumption to think that everyone wishing to not have this nerf is from people that understand this class fully and what nerfs will not kill the class. You realize that a disgusting amount of players, perhaps even a majority of the sage mains, rerolled to the class because it's op and not because they understand what makes it op, right? You think that they would know what is a good nerf to class or not, or you think they just want the class to be broken so they can abuse it? 

Also I don't believe we should be talking about echo chambers as you do know that the sage discord which where all the thinking and reasoning happened is a huge echo chamber itself. It's literally the only discord that isn't happy with the nerfs, and the only place that thinks the nerf is unreasonable. What is an echo chamber to you- one singular place that share a single opinion, or every other place in the community that share the other? Here's an example for you- every place I've been to, every person that I know to have good game knowledge, agrees with the iframe to superarmor, though some say (and I agree with this rather than fully superarmor) that the CD should be upped to 3/4 seconds and that should be iframe while rest is superarmor, EXCEPT the sage discord and sage mains. Is notion that the iframe nerf is too much, one that I've only seen from sages, bred from echo chambers or because it really is too much?

Look- all I was saying with this point is that it's rather dumb and ignorant to dismiss everyone in that "vocal majority of the minority" false indignation that the poster created because he thinks one side's opinion matters more than the other as he thinks they are "meme-y" when the reality is that both sides have the same people and both sides opinions are valid.

4. On the contrary, while I accept your point as the other side of the argument, I'm on the side that this is a good time to rebalance all the classes that they are not going to be touching with the revamping. I don't remember where I read this, but the revamp was supposed to have been moved forward to the end of this month. Nerfing classes down that were overtuned, and then bringing old classes up to speed with newer mechanics in the same month? Good idea to me. The second part of your point is on on the basis that you think the sage nerfs will kill the class which I don't believe it will so we can both dismiss that part unless you want to go in a circle again about whether or not sages are still going to be fine. 

His entire post is a disingenious dismissal of people that agree with the sage nerfs along with everything they've said with points that either are simply false or misleading while painting the other side in a bad light. My points are generally just there to negate what he point, but I'm happy to argue about them if you want.

I see that arguing the initial segment will boil down to a numbers game which at the end of the day neither of us have accurate and exact numbers to prove the exact % of either camp. So We'll just move past it.

1.) While I do agree that most people are in agreement that the class is indeed overtuned in some ways, I do not agree ith "when everyone complains about a class then there's something wrong with the class, not the people." Nor do I agree with the notion that "Anyone that has pvped would realize how over loaded his entire kit is, having the best aspects of every class combined."

Truth when it comes to this game is based purely on the most vocal group.  The BDO community is both Fickle and Spiteful. Especially when it comes to PvP, I'm sure we both can agree on that.  

The reason I mention this, is because not everyone in the community that agrees sage is too strong comes from an understanding of what actually makes the class strong in the first place. It can be caused by their own experiences getting gear checked by an enemy playing a new shiny class, or even something as little as a streamer making a passing joke calling a new class "busted". So yes, in some cases. (I'd even argue that in most cases.) community opinion on a class is never based through a background of knowledge on the class whatsoever. 
So to say "this change" or "That change" is healthy for the class, or even is effecient for the class when you don't have a firm understanding on what these changes actually do to the class, or how it will change the class overall is silly.

Also, I'd really like for you to give me a bullet list on what exactly sage has from "every class combined." I'm very interested to see what you say, so I won't respond to this part until you elaborate on what you mean haha.

2.) I don't believe everyone against the nerfs are sage mains themselves, but I do believe that both sides have biases to an extent. So we can move on from that. 

3.) We don't have the exact numbers to argue whether a large portion of players made the swap to awakening sage. At least not to my knowledge. 

With that being said, if I were to go on the (admittedly narrow) point of view from someone who's extremely active in the sage discord, most of the new adopters to the class unironically popped up as the class was announced to be receiving nerfs. Not as it was hyped as being OP. Either way it's a mute point.

"It's horribly ill-guided assumption to think that everyone wishing to not have this nerf is from people that understand this class fully and what nerfs will not kill the class."

I can agree to this. Although while this is the case, I do not think it takes away from my initial argument. It's just somewhat an obvious reality to both sides, except one side actually has the power to harm the other through their complaining.

4.) "Nerfing classes down that were overtuned, and then bringing old classes up to speed with newer mechanics in the same month? Good idea to me." 

Mmm, no. That's a horrible idea. 

The basis for revamping the classes is that older classes are outdated and cannot keep up with the new ones as they currently are. So to nerf the new ones to be on par with the "current old classes" with the plan to buff the old classes to be on par with the "new classes" current selves is... Like I said, just silly. 

As for this 

"The second part of your point is on on the basis that you think the sage nerfs will kill the class which I don't believe it will so we can both dismiss that part unless you want to go in a circle again about how sages are still going to be fine."

I'm assuming the "second part" you're referring to is my idea that since they're nerfing sage in such an ineffecient way, the community will not be satisfied and they will nerf sage again in the future, killing the class. 

Which I still believe to be true. The nerfs they gave sage are damaging, but they're just that. Damaging. Not effecient nor effective in combating what makes sage frag so hard or be as strong as he is. And since these changes only go to damage the class yet still aren't effecient in bringing it in line, they will need to nerf him again in the near future because the community still will not feel like these nerfs were effective in toning the class down. 

Because these nerfs are not the nerfs the class actually needed, they're just nerfs.

1. "community opinion on a class is never based through a background of knowledge on the class whatsoever. "

I agree, which is why I said anyone that has pvped. While yes that is a severe exaggeration, I do believe that anyone that actively pvps, whether its open world, nodewar, siege, or gvg they would have a good understanding of sage simply because of how regular sages are in the game at this point, and how stand out their experience fighting one is. 

"The reason I mention this, is because not everyone in the community that agrees sage is too strong comes from an understanding of what actually makes the class strong in the first place." 

I agree with this, but I believe this should also be extended to the people arguing against the nerfs- that not every sage understands what actually makes the class strong (read: annoying and not fun to play against), and that is what you're arguing about in the first place. You think that the damage is needs to be nerfed, but what I think is that the iframe spam is what needs to be nerfed. Another person would argue that another thing needs to be nerfed, so on so forth. Sage players talk about what they think is OP in the class, while players fighting against sages experience what they think is OP in the class.

As for the best part of every class, I do believe that it's been talked about and is argued but:

survivability- iframe near the level of sorc which has the best iframe in the game, mobility more agile and protected than that of both blader classes. highest base evasions that's only held back by lack of evasion buff, and magic dr on line with rest of magic classes. 

damage- high damage modifiers with high accuracy modifiers with high base ap only surpassed by succ wiz

grab- not the strongest due to corsair grab, but one of the best because it's an instanteous ranged grab.

3. I simply wanted to negate his point with an exact example on the opposite side of the spectrum. just as there are posts with no substance arguing for the nerf, there are posts arguing against that also does. 

4. It's good if they want to establish a certain level of power that they want every class to be around. If they've determined that they don't want every class to be at the level that sage is at, then this makes sense. Sage isn't the only class being nerfed so they are bringing what they consider problematic classes down before the revamps.

I disagree that you think the nerf isn't effective or effecient. Again, I think the iframe spam is a huge problem in the kit of Sages, and that that specific nerf is a good one, disregarding the others. If there is one nerf that they should start with, it's this one and also why I think we are going in a circle because you don't think so. 

do you really think sage is just so strong because of the iframes? that have triple distance of sorc, without any visible trace??

when we look at "normal" classes, e.g. awaken lahn, you see that a ranged grab is enough for a class to almost have no other tools at all, surely also not that insane damage, rather limited iframes. sorc can't do shit vs shield classes and has a lot lower damage.

or look at musa who doesn't even have any of that. 

new classes are absurdly broken, k/d ratios of those are currently probably at least twice as high as everyone else's

lol