Hello, my name is Lartyk,
Tamer player, I decided to create this post following a ticket I made #222210 and under the advice of [GM] Modric during this same ticket to try to gather the ideas and requests of the different tamer players and thus, may allow a more appropriate balancing of the class.
The ideas that I will quote below are the most requested requests about the class (so it's not only mine but that of a whole community), but have not necessarily been heard yet and come mainly from the class discord.
You should know that for the majority of players in the class, the rework of this one is not a success but it is for that that this post is created and can perhaps help tame it in a good way.
Requests and ideas:
- The most recurring request on the class and which is also personally the most important problem on this one are the CC's and damage of Heilang of which for the most important, the CC on the spell "Void" which before the update , applied its CC on each damage "tick" but now no longer works correctly.
This spell is a trap which is also an extremely important spell of the class. A trap must be permanently triggered to be effective because if this is not the case, the enemies can simply ignore it, which is not normal for a CC of such importance.
The request on the "void" spell is not limited to simply removing the bug from CC's but also to ensuring that the spell activates when it is activated which is not always the case and to, if possible, ensure that this spell is not canceled when using "Surging Tide"
- The second request for heilang would be to give him decent damage but also that the CC's normally provided on his spells work correctly (not only on "void" but also on his other CC's)
- Going up and down from heilang is extremely slow, the fight on it is also impossible because the skills of heilang are very limited and we cannot afford to get off our mount in combat, moreover, the summoning of heilang is very punitive for the tamer and should also be accelerated
- To begin with and although this change is not yet implemented in the "Live" server, the separation of "Legendary Beast Dance" or "LBD" is a significant nerf to the class. (which is really not consistent at the moment given the situation of the tamer which has become a "joke" on many steam and youtube videos due to being third below all other classes currently)
it decreases the power of its current "corp skill" but also loses the players because the icons are indistinguishable from each other and which in addition will prevent the tamer from having more choices in its "corp skill" while the other classes will have 3 additional choices, the tamer will only have 1 skill divided into 4…
- "Legendary Beast Power" or "LBP" the tamer is supposed to be a fast class but it is absolutely not the case currently... Its movement speed is one of the slowest in the game, largely exceeded by classes like warrior, valkyrie and giant which is insane for a class like this… Accelerate this skill by increasing the distance traveled (at least by +20% as proposed on the discord and supported by 98% the players of the class) and/or allow the skill to be used on cooldown
I return to the point above to repeat an important thing, the Tamer is too slow, it seems fast but has one of the slowest movements in the game, for a class that is supposed to be even for you a "class flash” being able to enter an enemy group and leave so quickly it is not coherent.
- Side scratch, I think everyone is happy to see this skill in our kit, but it would be necessary to make it smoother and faster
- Decrease the cd of Flow full moon, fearful and resonance, this would mainly impact the pve because the cd of these skills are too long without their power justifying it
- « Evasion, Speed up animation by 20%. Simplest possible change that should allow for a tamer to keep up some extent. It’d be a response for the all skills getting significantly faster animatio, that made WW insanely easy to punish (20% movement speed change protection gap 250ms -> 200ms) and would help to some extent with outdated movement (was there even any adjustment since release ?). Still protection gap, still heavily punishable by slows, nothing overpowered, yeti t may help the class stay relevant in current meta. »
- « Howling : make it soi t hit target are moving too, atm only work on still standing ppl… Witch is weird imo because before rework it did absolutely fine… »
- « Prime Throat Burn : Give it back +9% evasion rate buff it used to have before reboot »
- « Air Lightning: Make the skill has it owns cd »
- « BON: Beast Rampage: Remove the protection gap between BON: Beast Rampage and Flow: Full Moon. »
- « Celestial Slam: having a SA on it to be protected after flow and during Beast rampage combo, just to be safe. » (or a cancelability)
- « Allround Spinner: Increased AOE/Damage or Heilang's damage on it. »
- « Cloud stomping skill is very nice after rework, but doesn't really need a further buff because our "long predictable movement" is already good, however our main movement is really bad. If someone unsheathes their weapons and sprints away from us we can't catch up even with all our dashes. WW needs to be significantly faster than it is now. It only feels somewhat competitive with other movement when we have absorb buff activated. If not speeding it up, it's time to let us camera turn WW. Tamer is mostly just sitting in the middle while other classes circle us and deciding when they want to engage on us. Before we had void to at least protect ourselves, but even void is a joke now as no one even respects it anymore. They literally don't even need to know it's there, because chances are they won't get cc'd by it, so if we can't defend an area, we have to be able to move better than we do now. »
- « Scratch: Increase « Cloud_Ride » optimal height distance. This will decrease the overall chance of trigger random falling animation from a slightly inclined area or being hit multiple times in a short period during flight »
- « DP buff on Q block needs to be instant »
- Moonlight Strike: Make the SA last longer if it hits, similar/same as how long it lasts if it doesn't hit a target. and the increased distance of effect is barely noticeable, or does not feel implemented on reboot.
- Tree climb: Maybe it would be cool to get current tree climb « TreeClimb » + pre rework length of tree climb combined. so basically current tree climb with the length of the eye frame from before the rework
And maybe look at useless tamer skills like “Evasive Attack” or “Whiplash” absolutely useless…
All this may seem huge and may even be exaggerated, but if you pay more attention to it, you will see that the changes requested are absolutely not "op" and sound coherent.
Hoping that one of the last calls for help from the tamer community will be heard, please believe that we are all waiting for your opinion and feedback when asked by tamer players.
PS: Please return the stay command for screenshot
Thank you Latryk for still trying. Wish we could get something more than "I send your inquiry and all the information on it to our Developers Team" - would be really nice if we could get at least once a while an answer from the developers/class designers that would explain what is wrong with what community asks for, and explain their vision for the tamer playstyle. Currently, it's not different from being completely ignored and while GMs can be really nice and helpful(as much as they can do with their power) and write(or copypaste) pretty assuring apologies, it doesn't change the fact that the playerbase is abandoned. Just a sign of existence from the developer that acknowledged feedback would be already something.
For me, bare minimum that needs to be changed is:
1. Rollback heilang reboot,
2. Rollback heilang reboot,
3. Rollback heilang reboot,
4. Actually do something with tamer movement kit, which hasn't been changed since release(10% movement speed passive at least? Side evasion having iframe - for succ maybe?)
LET'S GO LARTYK!!! Great job summarizing and communicating the pain points that Tamers have been agreeing on since reworks.
Only thing I really want to add is PLEASE make Beast Rampage a forward guard skill, and move the bound effect off the skill itself and onto Core: Beast Rampage - what this would do is make Core: Moonlight Strike and Core: Legendary Beast Dance (which is now the first 4-core skill with hyperthreading in the game, cool) useable SA catches in group PvP and that would be one of the easiest ways to give Tamer a boost in large-scale. But not enough, of course.
Just want to add a note in the interest of perspective for players of other classes or whoever, to consider how Tamer works as a baseline before dismissing these ideas as OP. Tamer skills:
1. have tiny hitboxes
2. can be cancelled
3. are FG and awkward as hell to mouse move if they are protected damage, also see (1)
To quote the devs we are supposed to have a "hit and run" playstyle - but Zerk, Kuno, Ninja, DK, Lahn, Hash, Musa/Mae, Striker/Mystic, Drak, Warrior, Corsair, Valk, and even Sorc seem capable of disengaging and re-engaging on a Tamer at will, and just in general. They also all have bigger hitboxes. Tamer has advantages - her single-target damage, sustain, and agility are phenomenal, plus her very strong grab - she's a generalist with options at all times. But the reason movement and pet "trap" abilities are such a highlight is we really do need to be right in the enemy's face to be offensive. We also rotate more skill inputs/cds to get around than other classes so if you're looking at cooldown reduction requests here going "dafuq!? Tamers be wilin'...", consider that no one PvPing at a competitive level is saying Tamer is in a good place right now despite the fact that we already have nutty low cooldowns on most of the kit vs. other classes. Relative to the tools we already have, Lartyk's "asks" that may seem drastic or exaggerated have a very modest place in the existing Tamer kit:
||In the "Tamer" Context This is Reasonable Because...|
|« Celestial Slam: having a SA on it to be protected after flow and during Beast rampage combo, just to be safe. » (or a cancelability)||
Pre-rework PvP "go-to" (highest damage option, high risky):
Float Catch -> Celestial Slam -> Beast Rampage
So 10% more damage than the typical "go-to", that we currently only use after a catch when no one else is around because it commits to the kill unprotected and animation locked in Celestial Slam. The "ask" here is basically to make that 10% more damage viable in group PvP too OR IF NOT, just let us cancel it on a hair trigger like we can everything else in the kit including the current go-to of Flow: Full Moon -> Beast Rampage. My preference is make it FG, remove the stiff nobody uses, and let us cancel it whenever.
||I really like the idea of using if off CD, because that would enable better positioning/cancels for Tamer, which is really a nice stopgap for feeling slower than everybody right now since agility and flexibility through cancels are bread and butter Tamer things. As an SA, it's an equal component of Tamer protected movement and mitigation, together with Moonlight Strike, Cloud Stomping, leaves/gust, ww into tree-climb, and even lightning burn, claw, and raw scratch - which have an offensive use case as protected movements. 20% more LBP distance doesn't mean much additional protected movement on Tamer, but we're currently slower than pretty much every other rat/flanker class in the fight. Some of the most common ways Tamers use LBP have a gap at the start or end that will remain there as well (e.g. Trample Swap, ww/LMB cancel, grab attempts, flash, LBDE).
For 20% movement distance, it basically would be Awakened Ranger's 2s iframe on RMB, but a 1s SA instead, which like Ranger wouldn't be strong used off-CD but helps a lot in between fights and when the first dash wasn't far enough and position is needed more than protection at the moment. LBP is also how we execute most of our cancels, so despite the 1s CD it is actually on cooldown a lot when you need it for movement, having been used standing still less than 1s ago. All the off-CD thing would do is compensate for the relatively greater movement improvements to other reworked crasses and let Tamer do more Tamer stuff and participate in more fights that start zoom-zooming away from us. Charges like Valks have or separate Awakening/Pre-Awakening LBP, i.e. two 1s cooldowns might be even more appropriate muhahahha....
||Air Lightning is used to close the evasion "ww gap", to headbutt gearlets in a fun way for memes, and if they ever fix "void trap" to cast the trap just like Void Lightning does. With recent changes it is also a pull skill for PvE, useable off CD. Void Lightning, which shares the CD, is used more for lingering SA, shares the "void trap" use case, and is also one of our largest AoE skills (LOL! so sad I know...) for tagging mobs/players with a T2 debuff - but doing no damage. At 13s, their shared cooldown is among the highest in the Tamer kit, and in this protected SA-zoom-zoom meta having the extra "void trap" to throw down from either skill (a void trap that hasn't worked for 6 months now btw) doesn't sound that powerful to me. The uses of the two skills are somewhat separate now, and the void trap use is pending - it would be nice to use them separately, and see how strong double void trap really is when they finally fix it.|
||Currently this is used to "block and tickle", maybe applying T2 add-ons to oneself or the target. The AoE is tiny, Heilang's damage being even chip level would be great here because you can get Heilang to do it from range with Command: Attack, but as it is this skill which just had it's cooldown reduced to 7s is just Q-block with style. The 100% is good, but not what it was, and that's fine - but we also lost the "secret stiffness" from Moonlight Strike into All Around Spinner with reworks, and we already have Beast Rampage on a 4s CD that is superior in almost every way to All Around Spinner. Making this SA trade damage instead of FG maybe, giving the Heilang follow-up a damage buff, or increasing AoE/damage are all good ideas that don't add very much to our kit. Again, Beast Rampage engages on a 4s cooldown nearly one-skill at end-game. It's not a huge relative gain, but the utility of being farther away from the target when trading sometimes is what we are asking for.|
|WW needs to be significantly faster than it is now. It only feels somewhat competitive with other movement when we have absorb buff activated. If not speeding it up, it's time to let us camera turn WW. Tamer is mostly just sitting in the middle while other classes circle us and deciding when they want to engage on us. Before we had void to at least protect ourselves, but even void is a joke now as no one even respects it anymore. They literally don't even need to know it's there, because chances are they won't get cc'd by it, so if we can't defend an area, we have to be able to move better than we do now.||AMEN, brother. Facts. In general, I think a lot of Tamer's issues would feel less exaggerated if we had a 10% movespeed passive to replace the pathetic "Fortune's Blessing" passive with +25lt and +50hp (HAHAHAHAH!!! gets me everytime!), and a 5-10% attack speed and movement speed buff on some 2x skill in the kit, for example:
- 5% attack speed on Bolt Wave for 5s
- 5% movement speed on Moonlight Strike (give succ 10% on Prime: Moonlight Strike, they sooooo slowwwwwwww.... broooooooooo....)
In succession, a big complaint is the boring movement. All Lartyk's suggestions here would be especially helpful for that spec. But in general, Tamer feels so much better it's crazy with Absorb or Berserk buffs going for something between 20% and 50% movement speed buff - yet she still dies! So, so easily she still dies! If you're thinking more movement speed is going to make Tamer OP, play one, use your class buffs to get way more movement speed, then tell me how you're doing in war. Cause I already know, trust.
|« Cloud_Ride » optimal height distance. This will decrease the overall chance of trigger random falling animation from a slightly inclined area or being hit multiple times in a short period during flight »||YES PLEASE. The 7s cooldown now is really impactful and appreciated. However, the skill would be really cool if you could increase the height at which the very cool extended cloud rides are possible, and by extension let us do something other than trigger the falling animation when we cloud ride off a ledge or a bump that's slightly too high up.|
Love u bros,