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Tab-Targeting Is Not Primitiveness: Not Having It Is Though
Sep 22, 2022, 15:09 (UTC)
1252 13
1 2
Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 15:09 (UTC)
# 1

You know, 

If you want to compete against other up and coming MMOs, say... by having an actual healer class, you could be the first MMO of this era to recognize Tab-Targeting in gaming isn't being " a primitive ". 

If MMOs came out of Dungeons and Dragons then Tab-Targetting is simply the capacity to voice the Subject or Object of a sentence. 

- For some reason, modern game developers have this brain-bug that tells them Tab-Targeting is "being a primitive' and " ...so last century... ". This is complete idiocy. Abandon such nonsense. Tab-targetting is a function. Not having it is like tying your hand behind your back permanently to show you're a more advanced human being. People will consider you extremely eccentric at best and move on from you. That is coming. Prepare for it.

As for how to use Tab-Targetting in BDO?

Well, infinite pots only exist because you have no Support Classes.

- Everything that could provide support in BDO is just a burst-from-center spell expulsion. There's no capacity for nuance. 

- Likewise, you cannot monitor your party member stats AS A FUNCTIONAL ROLE and alter those stats AS A FUNCTIONAL ROLE.
- Every class is focused on "combat". 

Korean developers seem to also have a consistent tendency to split "Support" with "DPS" because they image that taking two roles and divinding them in half provides a person with twice as much time in a shared universe as well. Thus, though a person gets 60(2) abilities now, they still only have 60 seconds. This usually equates to a person with a split-role class doing 1/4 or 15 seconds worth of activity for any aspect of their otherwise 60 odd abilities. In short, split-role classes are another kind of non-sense. Don't attempt this.

What you could do is create a class that is entirely support oriented and fairly stationary. Yes, really. I joked before that your re-design of the Naga actually rather demands a class that cannot move or be moved because just getting knocked back resets the Naga. If we ignore that this is bad game design for a moment let's look at this as a full-group encounter. 

Imagine a person is standing still. The reason they are doing this is their primary role is to MONITOR and ALTER their PARTY MEMBER STATS.
- Now imagine that the can cast a very strong shield. The shield, if it collapses, leaves them very exposed. This is their "combat experience". S

- Next, the shield can be "cycled". See something like The Defect in Slay the Spire. 

- - In Slay the Spire one of the classes available can "cycle" various roles by "chambering" spells of this or that type (up to 3, initially) on their shield. At the end of their turn (or through some action) the spell forward-most in the cycle can be pulsed, then sent to the end of the cycle. Each spell thereafter will also cycle through and pulse, once. When all spells "chambered" have been cast once at-end-of-turn that turn ends.

Something like this would permit a BDO player (with tab targeting) to "focus" (literally, direct their attention) to things besides preoccupations that define most of the rest of action combat. It would literally provide new forms of action combat. The reason being is that the player who is in possession of such a shield could re-route incoming actions against them or their own internal mana stores towards producing "rounds" of "cyclic flows". Rounds would be defined by how many spells you'd permit them to chamber. Cyclic flows what they've put together onto their shield for this round to flow through. 

Some of these would necessarily need to be 'defensive' while others could cause the shield reactively expulse damage. Still others would be "directed" (tab target). In this way, you've entered into a new way to expand action combat. I'm sure you could make this class mobile as well. However, for now, it would be practical to break out of the skyrim/morrowind mindset the game is held in. Soloing all the time is "okay", but people want to play with their friends. You've wasted Elvia 2 part 1 on solo play. It's all "the same". Try permitting more group play. All you're doing is walking around with your hand tapped behind your back in a business suit. It's strange and confusing. No one understands. I don't mean to say break what BDO is, but you've got something in BDO that's capable of alot more MMO experience than you're permitting. Why?

Additionally, as a side note, please consider this following thought very seriously.

In Everquest 1 up to the Kunark expansion:

Teleportation was of three types: Teleport-to-Bound Location, Teleport to Wizard Spire, Teleport to Druid Spire.
I am IN NO WAY saying to add Teleportation into BDO. Rather, I want to point out something odd I've noticed. It's very odd.

To receive a Teleport, during those periods of Everquest specifically, you needed to get them through another person. This actually was a major expense to the person providing the teleport BECAUSE Everquest, at that time, required very long recovery times for mana regeneration. I think this is an incredibly obscure, but vitally important thing to observe for an MMO developer.

Teleportation ONLY works (in any world) if that world can "soak" the "hastening" the Teleportation causes.

- For example, in BDO any teleport in the game forces a long (multi-hours) cooldown afterwords. 

Doing this causes "ruralness" to remain CONSTANT (as a unit of time to distance traveled) in BDO.

- the same thing is true of Everquest 1, Vanilla World of of Warcraft, and all other "thriving" MMOs. Guild Wars 1 also.

And this brings me to Guild Wars 1.

In that game you can teleport from town to town. However, travels betwen towns is INSTANCED.

- I think this is a critical piece of information about what makes a MMO "thrive" or "die". 

ALL MMOs at their "thriving point" (not peak) has understood to maintain a CONSTANT "travel time" between locations.

- HOWEVER, there was also a strong, strong, sense of "achievement" for having traveled at all (successfully) between one location to another. 

- Guild Wars 1 is probably best at this. You can salvage from creatures killed as you travel. The creatures are usually "challenging", but not overly tenacious (usually). Afterwards you can store the salvage you found and restock on salvage kits. Then repeat: heading off into a very vast (rural) location with no more objective in mind than to reach the next town (usually several regions away). 

BDO entirely lacks this. 

The "ruralness" of BDO provides no challenge. When I said to construct something like Elvia (which you did, thank you) I said to make it with the towns needing to be "unlocked" after a siege so that players could "recapture" them from NPCs. Like we started in Velia, then moved out and attempted to capture Heidel from Orcs. This would unlock Heidel for a week. After that the town would come under siege by NPCs. If we didn't do so many kill quests around the town the NPC siege would be successful and the town would fall back to disuse. This could be as simple as despawning the NPCs in the town and simply demanding we kill so many Elvia creatures in that region to keep the town active. And it didn't need to be Heidel. We could lose Tarif and Glish, Plantation and Florin, and Epheria, while Olvia and Velia remain reliable open hubs. As would Grana and Altinova, but Sand Graine and castle west of it would be lost, etc.

The point is, the node war mechanism already can spawn and despawn entire areas for enemy NPCs. 

Do this same thing to towns in some new region.

- Make a very large region of rolling plains like Navaran Steppes.
- Let the plains "roll" enough that it always looks grassy. 
- Players need to capture nodes, initially from say Granan Scouts. Who have identified areas to setup camps and supply routes.

- Then players complete the quests daily. This shows a tally at the NPC of how many quests need to be completed that week 1500/2000 for the node to unlock, for example.
- The following week they can advance further into the zone.
- Initially, the plain might be full of fairly basic mobs. Then as they players advance through the region more and more challenging encounters, solo and group, appear. 
- The distances between outposts would also grow larger.
- Traveling and fighting, between one outpost to the next would reward you "flags". These indicate to the npcs on the far side of the map that you actually crossed it and performed some contribution to their overall supply chain or sustaining of the outpost. Once per day simply crossing from one location to another would also grant a flag. This way there is that reward for simply going from one location to another successfully.

- You should also have creatures that appear specifically to "chase" players who attempt to ride the whole distance. Though not entirely dangerous they could knockdown. Like that Ice Age Russian Bear. Something scary enough you need to kill it if it knocks you off your horse, but primarily exists TO stalk you and knock you off your horse.
- Adding in "stalking" mobs to areas that are group content could also be a lot of fun. Something to make grouping feeling not only the intended content, but occassionally necessary just in case that freak shows up. And then a pathing monster that randomly stalks the region on several RNG altering paths. Preferrably a creature that is of an animal type (like a fast lizard?) rather than a humanoid to maintain the rural sense of the place.
If all towns are captured in the region and held for a week then a special event boss appears in the field. Perhaps some sort of ancient construst?

This is what people want.


Not "Go touch the purple door at the purple door time" like Dungeon 2. They want something organic. Rural. Where the reward is what they themselves are doing (flags). Not what you told them to do. 

But all of this is going to be somewhat watered down and baked on simple without you giving in and providing support roles at some point. Pulsing spells out from wherever we are standing to wherever our teammates (hopefully) are only works so well. Especially when we're not allowed to move very far (in an action combat game, really??) because you keep the creature's pull distances so short and so few creatures in a pull. 

Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 16:01 (UTC)
# 2
On: Sep 22, 2022, 15:09 (UTC), Written by BelleAtwell

- For some reason, modern game developers have this brain-bug that tells them Tab-Targeting is "being a primitive' and " ...so last century... ".

idk why you wrote this wall of text here, but developers never considered it primitive, it's purely a design choice. Usually low effort cash grab games(especially KR ones) add action combat, as it can be sold due to it's nice, flashy animations and such, but in reality those games also have very shallow, glitch, exploitable combat, and they usually end up being a meme rather than a competitive PvP game.

244 4634
Lv 62
Hnnie
Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 16:35 (UTC)
# 3

nah i dont want back to pre 2010 mmorpg, we are fine with our modern mmorpg ^_^

This was hidden by admin due to the reports it has received.
Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 17:08 (UTC)
# 5
On: Sep 22, 2022, 15:09 (UTC), Written by BelleAtwell

Well, infinite pots only exist because you have no Support Classes.

And with that, every shai around the world were heard moaning.

Sorry OP but tab targetting doesn't work on action combat that borderlines hack and slash. It would make no sense to implement it and 90% of your wall of text was irrelevant to support this idea. There is already two degrees of target support in the settings which is more like aim assistant.

I do think that the combat system can be improved but I don't think tab targetting is a way that could make it better, if anything it would make it very confusing to use and unless you have a means to explain how it would work correctly in this genre, your idea is too far fetch to even acknowledge.

Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 17:28 (UTC)
# 6

how to say u suck at pvp without saying u suck at pvp

Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 18:12 (UTC)
# 7

op i only read your first sentence but yeah a support class that heals and can tab target foes and the bros but it doesnt attack just places dots on the mobs and debuffsand buffs partie mems yeah group content hell yeah...   btw dont down vote my comment ill down vote myself aii one

Lv Private
ShyYgirl
Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 18:30 (UTC)
# 8

Tab targeting could work if it was phrased as "target lock" 

So many people have a mental barrier like thunk tab target means wow lol..

Na we have fluid combat, it's nothing to add in a click on target and lock feature. 

The issue here is that trolls will be trolls and a whole guild with lock target one guy and that's just a mess. 

It's possible to have tabbed target lock. 

But plain old wow style oGCD tab targeting isn't gonna work in this game especially in PvE when you need to ball up a pack of mobs 

16 148
Lv 62
WHMZY
Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 18:54 (UTC)
# 9
On: Sep 22, 2022, 18:30 (UTC), Written by TezeB

Tab targeting could work if it was phrased as "target lock" 

So many people have a mental barrier like thunk tab target means wow lol..

Na we have fluid combat, it's nothing to add in a click on target and lock feature. 

The issue here is that trolls will be trolls and a whole guild with lock target one guy and that's just a mess. 

It's possible to have tabbed target lock. 

But plain old wow style oGCD tab targeting isn't gonna work in this game especially in PvE when you need to ball up a pack of mobs 

it worked on guild war

i remember a monk build you ball up monsters and after you just active special skill to kill this monsters swarm around you

Last Edit : Sep 22, 2022, 19:24 (UTC)
# 10
On: Sep 22, 2022, 15:09 (UTC), Written by BelleAtwell

You know, 

If you want to compete against other up and coming MMOs, say... by having an actual healer class, you could be the first MMO of this era to recognize Tab-Targeting in gaming isn't being " a primitive ". 

If MMOs came out of Dungeons and Dragons then Tab-Targetting is simply the capacity to voice the Subject or Object of a sentence. 

- For some reason, modern game developers have this brain-bug that tells them Tab-Targeting is "being a primitive' and " ...so last century... ". This is complete idiocy. Abandon such nonsense. Tab-targetting is a function. Not having it is like tying your hand behind your back permanently to show you're a more advanced human being. People will consider you extremely eccentric at best and move on from you. That is coming. Prepare for it.

As for how to use Tab-Targetting in BDO?

Well, infinite pots only exist because you have no Support Classes.

- Everything that could provide support in BDO is just a burst-from-center spell expulsion. There's no capacity for nuance. 

- Likewise, you cannot monitor your party member stats AS A FUNCTIONAL ROLE and alter those stats AS A FUNCTIONAL ROLE.
- Every class is focused on "combat". 

Korean developers seem to also have a consistent tendency to split "Support" with "DPS" because they image that taking two roles and divinding them in half provides a person with twice as much time in a shared universe as well. Thus, though a person gets 60(2) abilities now, they still only have 60 seconds. This usually equates to a person with a split-role class doing 1/4 or 15 seconds worth of activity for any aspect of their otherwise 60 odd abilities. In short, split-role classes are another kind of non-sense. Don't attempt this.

What you could do is create a class that is entirely support oriented and fairly stationary. Yes, really. I joked before that your re-design of the Naga actually rather demands a class that cannot move or be moved because just getting knocked back resets the Naga. If we ignore that this is bad game design for a moment let's look at this as a full-group encounter. 

Imagine a person is standing still. The reason they are doing this is their primary role is to MONITOR and ALTER their PARTY MEMBER STATS.
- Now imagine that the can cast a very strong shield. The shield, if it collapses, leaves them very exposed. This is their "combat experience". S

- Next, the shield can be "cycled". See something like The Defect in Slay the Spire. 

- - In Slay the Spire one of the classes available can "cycle" various roles by "chambering" spells of this or that type (up to 3, initially) on their shield. At the end of their turn (or through some action) the spell forward-most in the cycle can be pulsed, then sent to the end of the cycle. Each spell thereafter will also cycle through and pulse, once. When all spells "chambered" have been cast once at-end-of-turn that turn ends.

Something like this would permit a BDO player (with tab targeting) to "focus" (literally, direct their attention) to things besides preoccupations that define most of the rest of action combat. It would literally provide new forms of action combat. The reason being is that the player who is in possession of such a shield could re-route incoming actions against them or their own internal mana stores towards producing "rounds" of "cyclic flows". Rounds would be defined by how many spells you'd permit them to chamber. Cyclic flows what they've put together onto their shield for this round to flow through. 

Some of these would necessarily need to be 'defensive' while others could cause the shield reactively expulse damage. Still others would be "directed" (tab target). In this way, you've entered into a new way to expand action combat. I'm sure you could make this class mobile as well. However, for now, it would be practical to break out of the skyrim/morrowind mindset the game is held in. Soloing all the time is "okay", but people want to play with their friends. You've wasted Elvia 2 part 1 on solo play. It's all "the same". Try permitting more group play. All you're doing is walking around with your hand tapped behind your back in a business suit. It's strange and confusing. No one understands. I don't mean to say break what BDO is, but you've got something in BDO that's capable of alot more MMO experience than you're permitting. Why?

Additionally, as a side note, please consider this following thought very seriously.

In Everquest 1 up to the Kunark expansion:

Teleportation was of three types: Teleport-to-Bound Location, Teleport to Wizard Spire, Teleport to Druid Spire.
I am IN NO WAY saying to add Teleportation into BDO. Rather, I want to point out something odd I've noticed. It's very odd.

To receive a Teleport, during those periods of Everquest specifically, you needed to get them through another person. This actually was a major expense to the person providing the teleport BECAUSE Everquest, at that time, required very long recovery times for mana regeneration. I think this is an incredibly obscure, but vitally important thing to observe for an MMO developer.

Teleportation ONLY works (in any world) if that world can "soak" the "hastening" the Teleportation causes.

- For example, in BDO any teleport in the game forces a long (multi-hours) cooldown afterwords. 

Doing this causes "ruralness" to remain CONSTANT (as a unit of time to distance traveled) in BDO.

- the same thing is true of Everquest 1, Vanilla World of of Warcraft, and all other "thriving" MMOs. Guild Wars 1 also.

And this brings me to Guild Wars 1.

In that game you can teleport from town to town. However, travels betwen towns is INSTANCED.

- I think this is a critical piece of information about what makes a MMO "thrive" or "die". 

ALL MMOs at their "thriving point" (not peak) has understood to maintain a CONSTANT "travel time" between locations.

- HOWEVER, there was also a strong, strong, sense of "achievement" for having traveled at all (successfully) between one location to another. 

- Guild Wars 1 is probably best at this. You can salvage from creatures killed as you travel. The creatures are usually "challenging", but not overly tenacious (usually). Afterwards you can store the salvage you found and restock on salvage kits. Then repeat: heading off into a very vast (rural) location with no more objective in mind than to reach the next town (usually several regions away). 

BDO entirely lacks this. 

The "ruralness" of BDO provides no challenge. When I said to construct something like Elvia (which you did, thank you) I said to make it with the towns needing to be "unlocked" after a siege so that players could "recapture" them from NPCs. Like we started in Velia, then moved out and attempted to capture Heidel from Orcs. This would unlock Heidel for a week. After that the town would come under siege by NPCs. If we didn't do so many kill quests around the town the NPC siege would be successful and the town would fall back to disuse. This could be as simple as despawning the NPCs in the town and simply demanding we kill so many Elvia creatures in that region to keep the town active. And it didn't need to be Heidel. We could lose Tarif and Glish, Plantation and Florin, and Epheria, while Olvia and Velia remain reliable open hubs. As would Grana and Altinova, but Sand Graine and castle west of it would be lost, etc.

The point is, the node war mechanism already can spawn and despawn entire areas for enemy NPCs. 

Do this same thing to towns in some new region.

- Make a very large region of rolling plains like Navaran Steppes.
- Let the plains "roll" enough that it always looks grassy. 
- Players need to capture nodes, initially from say Granan Scouts. Who have identified areas to setup camps and supply routes.

- Then players complete the quests daily. This shows a tally at the NPC of how many quests need to be completed that week 1500/2000 for the node to unlock, for example.
- The following week they can advance further into the zone.
- Initially, the plain might be full of fairly basic mobs. Then as they players advance through the region more and more challenging encounters, solo and group, appear. 
- The distances between outposts would also grow larger.
- Traveling and fighting, between one outpost to the next would reward you "flags". These indicate to the npcs on the far side of the map that you actually crossed it and performed some contribution to their overall supply chain or sustaining of the outpost. Once per day simply crossing from one location to another would also grant a flag. This way there is that reward for simply going from one location to another successfully.

- You should also have creatures that appear specifically to "chase" players who attempt to ride the whole distance. Though not entirely dangerous they could knockdown. Like that Ice Age Russian Bear. Something scary enough you need to kill it if it knocks you off your horse, but primarily exists TO stalk you and knock you off your horse.
- Adding in "stalking" mobs to areas that are group content could also be a lot of fun. Something to make grouping feeling not only the intended content, but occassionally necessary just in case that freak shows up. And then a pathing monster that randomly stalks the region on several RNG altering paths. Preferrably a creature that is of an animal type (like a fast lizard?) rather than a humanoid to maintain the rural sense of the place.
If all towns are captured in the region and held for a week then a special event boss appears in the field. Perhaps some sort of ancient construst?

This is what people want.


Not "Go touch the purple door at the purple door time" like Dungeon 2. They want something organic. Rural. Where the reward is what they themselves are doing (flags). Not what you told them to do. 

But all of this is going to be somewhat watered down and baked on simple without you giving in and providing support roles at some point. Pulsing spells out from wherever we are standing to wherever our teammates (hopefully) are only works so well. Especially when we're not allowed to move very far (in an action combat game, really??) because you keep the creature's pull distances so short and so few creatures in a pull. 

We need another support  preferably not a small child option and  harder pve content. For late game players who are now playing on an alt char because thier gear gains are not really worth anymore that's more then just a dp ap gear check. The dungeons we have are a start but the rewards they give are not enough . And to call them challenging is so wrong. Challenge my brain to figure out mechanics have the boss give off tells for what's coming and if I'm wrong I'm punished or tbe group wipes. Someone said crypt of resting thoughts is challenging. Is it? Or do the mobs just hit very very hard? And to low dp you die and to low ap you do no damage?  Is it really challenging you As a player or is it checking your gear? Just like every other grind spot before it?

🤔 

I don't think we need a tab target option  though. Other ways to do it.

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