Yeah yeah, same old topic, life skillers scream REEE and everyone dislikes talking about it, but hear me out!

First of all I want to make a make distinction, killing someone once, is just playing the game, the devs even made the statement that Open World PvP is part of the core of the game, but killing someone multiple times, hunting or griefing them, is harrasement, which is what this post is supposed to act against.

I dont want to encourage random flagging but make it less terrifying, Griefing is a huge problem in lower AP areas (everything less than Hystria). Open World PVP is a big part oft he charm of this game, and I get that penaltys for getting killed in PVP have ben removed, but the penaltys for players that fight for their spot, help a guildmate, actually have fun killing random people open world or even perma Red players are way too high for there being no reprecussion on the killed player. This makes griefing very alluring, just taking the spot, making othres mad, provoking or trolling them, there are even whole Guilds that only have griefing as their Goal (Some describtions for Guilds literally say that, just like their members).

And okay, sure, there are a few things you can do when you get griefed.

1. You can swap the server

I dont like this method since it gives the griefer the impression that he can do whatever he wants. He has won, you left, your money/h went down and it makes you feel miserable, you are on another Server where someone else might be grinding, and either they are stronger than you or you are a good person or simply dont like PVP and dont want to disturb them, and then you have to wait, swap character, or play another game. This is not what we want, do we?

2. Change the Spot

A nice idea, that just wont work really good because of multiple reasons. The other spot could be taken, or is just not what you want to grind, not your favourite spot or it has less to none oft he mobs you want to kill for a treasure part! And even more important, if its a passionate griefer he probably wont leave you alone until youre gone for good.

3. Kill them

This may work, depening on how large the Gap in Gear is, or how good you’re at PvP. Most griefers are known to have low gear tho, or strip themself of their gear just enough to keep griefing, but to have you loose the most Karma possible. People therefore consider not leaving after being defeated over and over (specially if they strip their gear) as Karmabombing. This method will most likely lead to the killer ending up as a RED player, which has absurdly high penalties upon dying.

To not loose to much Karma, some people even try to feed their enemy to mobs (by hitting them with just enough dmg to not kill them themself and letting a Monster do the last hit, which results in crystals being broken).

The problem here is that some Griefers hide their real gear, just for you to get mad enough to go red and then try to kill you over and over again or feed you to mobs as well, since the penalties for dying to monsters as a red player are unbelieably high. This, or they try to kill you once if this little accident happened in the desert, then you get send to prison and have to find a new way into hystria/aakman. Everyone that has been tot he prison once kinda doesnt want to risk this, since its either a huge labyrinth or waithing half an hour, or grind sulfur like a slave to get out of there. I mean, the idea oft he prison is cool, just griefing isnt.

4. Declare War on their Guild

 This may work sometimes, though the probability of them being under protection by their guild is very high, which leaves you with option 1-3. That is, if they are even in a guild. I have seen it all, people leaving their guilds to not get affected by it, people degrading from officer to normal member and put under protection, these guys do whatever it takes to ruin your day. In the end you can have some luck in that, because some people dont want to get killed over and over again they swap or leave immediatly after the war started, just provoking and teasing you for like 15 minutes.

So, none of this worked, griefers almost always win if you dont have the courage or the gear to go RED.
My topic is about fixing this issue and, like i said above, make it less terrifying.

Inspiration from this comes from Streamers, mostly @PotionshopTV, he mentioned a few methods that could work, for example, a spawn timer that trigger when you get killed multiple times in PvP or makes you spawn in the city, or even bring back EXP loss on death if you get killed in PvP multiple times. And dont get me wrong, this should only apply for multiple deaths in a shot period of time.

People who are innocent can always avoid these „penalties“ by swapping server or the grindspot, since most likely they are not getting griefed. Now the only thing needed is some thoughts to prevent the literal hunt on players to have them get these penalties even though they just want to play the game.

[EDIT] - I have to add, that about 95% of all the RED players I have met in the game went red to defend their spot or got griefed in general, also they are more friendly than normal randoms most of the time. But sadly all people see is RED and they attack without thinking, very much like they dont wish to be treated.

[Updates soon]

Oh boy, you've just opened a can of worms with this.  There's been many discussions on the forum about this topic and there's some good (and bad) input from everyone who participates.  I've been in discussions about this topic since Kakao forum, and to make a long story short -- I think the current Karma System has big room for improvement and what I believe prevents said improvement is how BDO wants to cater to everyone, at one time.

You can increase death timers, but doing so may increase PK, which then prevents some lower geared players from wanting to play.  You can make PVP death force spawns to town, but again, doing so will make the game harder for casuals / lowbies / PVP averse players, and BDO is in a direction that caters to these players too, for good and bad.  Some guilds cannot be War Dec'd, and Guildless players have 100% immunity, allowing them to grind on top of others, with the intent of griefing.  "Intent" is hard to measure when it is not blatently stated, but the fact remains that guildless players can grief others by way of grind spot interruption / mob stealing.  The fact remains that the ability to do so is there.

I, with the help of others, have thought of these suggestions that can greatly alleviate griefing, across the board.

(Griefing is on a spectrum, there are many ways to do so.  "Griefing" basically defined as messing with someone's gameplay with the intent of delliberately disrupting another player's enjoyment for personal enjoyment.)

1) Bounty / Sheriff System = This will allow us players to take agency into our own hands in dealing with toxic PKers, player-hunters, and red players.  As a side effect, will make red players gameplay more thrilling, since they choose to play red for the "thrill" of it because of increased risk exchanged for increased freedom.  This system would need to be free from exploit.  IMO, no silver reward for being a Sheriff.  If there's any reward, it should be in the form of recognition.  Maybe allow sheriffs to have a badge next to their name, but that's about it.  Maybe titles or exclusive costume pieces, but no silver, EXP, or anything else that's tangible as it opens the door to exploitation.  Doesn't need to be overly complicated to be good.

2) Player vs Player "dec" = This is similar to a guild dec, but ONLY relegated for individual players.  Guilds are not involved.  No one is immune to this, there is no "guild protection" from this.  This would allow individual players to "declare war" on another individual player, so, as per your post, no one can grief you with nothing you can do about it.  To prevent exploit, limit the amount of active individual player decs to one at a time, and when either player swaps server, the dec is automatically cancelled.

3) Mob "Memory" = This works by associating killed mobs to the last person that secured a kill on it, for a brief amount of time.  For example, when you kill a mob, that mob retains a "memory" of you for, let's say for 1-2 minutes after it respawns.  This time is kept short so that players cannot overextend a grind spot and need to keep their rotations tight.  If another player kills that mob, they will get a warning telling them that they are infringing on another player.  Memory does not swap while the timer is in effect, it remains with the original player.  These warnings are in place to ensure the player is complicit in their infringment.  Don't mean to infringe on someone else?  Stop stealing mobs.  If they kill enough mobs with another player's mob-memory, penalty-free PVP is enabled between the two players, being disabled if either player swaps server or after a certain amount of time.  Now, I understand that "no one owns a spot", and I fully agree -- however -- players "occupy" a spot.  If a spot is "occupied", stealing mobs is directly impacting another player's progression and is viewed as toxic.  If the players willingly share mobs, that's fine -- don't fight and just grind.  But this isn't always the case -- all opinions matter -- so if the player originally occupying the SOLO grind spot doesn't want to share, they don't have to, as it conforms to game-design (solo spots meant to be solo'd) -- and they have an objective and feasible way to deal with mob-stealers.  Memory is kept at a short duration to prevent exploit, but long enough that a player can realistically grind a rotation and hold it, if they so choose.

I believe these things are; 1) Free from exploit, and 2) Fair for everyone.  If there's any counter arguments, please reply back.

I actually went perma red in protest of the karma system. Going red is the system the game wants you to use if you want to be able to kill other players intruding into your session so that's what I did. I was red for 2 years. I have to say that, during that time, I was never griefed by PVP as much as I have been griefed over grindspots on my non red or tagged characters. Sadly as the game moves forward simply being red just isnt viable any longer. In ages past when crystals were less powerful you could rely on consumes to relatively equal someone who was not red. Now the power level you lose by not being able to run a BiS crystal setup is simply massive. Not to mention other tweaks and nerfs. (Red players unable to use Marni realm for example. Or reds unable to pickup the weapons in Elvia realm.) This on top of all of the risks of losing xp on death, having gems explode on pvp death, and in rare cases losing enhancement levels if you are fed to mobs.  At this point Red Karma options are abandoned content just like trading . sea monster hunting, and all the other systems that become discarded with time.

I dont feel like being red is a reasonable soloution to the problem of grind greifing.

Damn you Forums! Just wrote an answer and it got deleted cause i had to "log in" again...

1) Bounty / Sheriff System

This is already widely known, yes, but it needs a lot of thought to be put into cause this is very fragile. Also you have to leave red players out of this calculation because they are usually the griefed ones or just doing it for the Red player RP or the "thrill" as you said. They are already the target of every breathing individual.

2) Player vs Player "dec"

This seems very abuseable, you could just kill someone over and over again just like on Arsha, and we want to avoid senseless killing or even player hunts if its not on a PvP server.

3) Mob "Memory"

Just imagine season servers, this would be totally crazy. You could disable it at season servers, but thats where people get griefed the most, cause you cant attack there. Also depending on the limitations the griefing one could just do a griefing race with you, making you the one "stealing" in the eyes of the system. Idk, seems very abuseable as well. Also this feels very restricted, you have to keep grinding like a machine and cannot leave your rotation. Welp I dislike it.

The problem with this discussion is that the system will always favor either the weak players or the strong players. The current system allows weaker characters to grief stronger characters by grinding in their rotation and reducing their efficiency. If there was no karma systam at all strong players would dominate the most efficient spots in the game and gatekeep weaker players.

You wont ever be able to defise a system so comprehensive that it accounts for all fringe cases of abuse on both sides. The best you can do is fashion a system that serves the majority of players the majority of the time. I just think that if you die to the same player 3 times in 15 mins you shouldnt cost them karma anymore.  I understand that this means you can effectively be PKed out of your spot but I think that is essentially the way the game was designed If you want access to the most efficient spots in the game you should be expecting to fight for your right to be there. If you cant do it on your own, thats what guilds and guild wars are for. If at the end of the day you cant fight off others and lose your spot, then time for you to go to a slightly worse spot to grind instead.

Your suggestion is as follows:

"My topic is about fixing this issue and, like i said above, make it less terrifying.

Inspiration from this comes from Streamers, mostly @PotionshopTV, he mentioned a few methods that could work, for example, a spawn timer that trigger when you get killed multiple times in PvP or makes you spawn in the city, or even bring back EXP loss on death if you get killed in PvP multiple times."

This has been suggested before, and is the most obvious "solution".  But this can be abused as well.  Take the low geared player grinding Centaurs, for example.  A low geared or casual is grinding Centaurs and another player PK's them -- The low geared player will have to leave, even if they were there first, because if they stay and keep getting killed, the PKer steals the spot.  New player experience is very important, along with veteran experience, and the spawn timer suggestion would just make it harder for new players to enjoy the game since it gives higher geared players a way to take the spot away from a lower geared.

In my suggestions above, the person who is grinding there first -- no matter who it is -- has an actual way in dealing with intruders that's, A) Not punishing for them, B) Fair, in that intruders will know they are "griefing" someone else, C) Ways for possible intruders to avoid doing so.

As of now, the only option to stop the griefing you're complaining about it to become a griefer yourself and feed them to mobs.  This just promotes more toxicity across the board and is an issue I really hope the devs take careful examination into.

FYI - I am looking at this in favor of the person there first.  Both new player and vet. I'm 710+ GS full PEN Blackstar and can hold my own.  I sympathize with all players who are not griefers -- new or old, as I have been griefed before in this game BOTH while I was new and now, while I'm a vet.  You have to look at this issue from all possible angles, not just your own.

While I do agree with your assesment that being killed repeatedly can indeed qualify as you being griefed by PvPers. In my opinion though, having bad actors interrupting my grind session is not only griefing, but I consider it to be PvP on an unintended battlefield.

I as one player am now directly competing with another player fighting for silver and efficiency in grinding. This is directly one player versus another. There is even imbalance here as some classes grind faster that others. Skill comes into play, as some players are much better at grinding that others. Even use of alternate strategies such as talking shit to them, or linking valueable items found in the chat to frusterate or demoralize your opponent.  Competative grinding to me Is actually pvp born from emergent player behavior but rather that damage and lifebars the winner is determined by frusteration and whoever has more free time to kill. Just so, you can just as easily apply the definition of griefing to these encounters as being repeatedly killed.

https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Policy?policyNo=5

I think its pretty easy to equate my grinding at nagas to be normalm gameplay, and for the person to walk right next to me and drasticallycut my effeciency by grinding the same mobs as me to be a disruption using the game's systems.

I'm not entirely sure who said it, as the orange text in posts has confused me a bit, but season servers are NOT PvE only. Guild decs are possible on these servers. It was very troublesome during the yeti boss event we had a couple weeks ago.

On that note, I do certainly agree there needs to be some sort of change to the karma system. It's ridiculous how so many people attempt to abuse the system to grief people out of their spots.

Though the open-world pvp system isn't that great it's still viable, if you don't want to be griefed, you can go to Arsha, or you can go temporary red which is less desirable, but you do have options. I like the idea of the sheriff, I hope it gets implemented, though I am worried if anyone would do it if there is no silver reward, but we can only know if tested.

I don't like the idea of the mob memory, it seems to artificial or like makes it less realistic, I think the human aspect of us fighting over territory is what makes the game more interesting, I personally don't think we need to go that far just yet.

 I want to push back against this notion here that being red is an option. Semantically, this is technically true but at some point you have to look at the realities of the option and if they are so punishing as to be prohibitive then the option does not really exist.  For example if yoiu said, i need a needle to get a splinter out of my finger and there is no store nearby that sells them. Someone might say "well you could dig through the waste bins behind the emergency room and use one of those." But this isnt a soloution that can be taken seriously because of the hilariously severe drawbacks and risks.

Arsha is a more sincere option. It *does* have its own problems and isn't what I would call a perfect soloution but I will cede the point that if you want to be able to fight over the spot you can go to arsha to do that. You just wont be very successful unless you're in the upper 5% of the playerbase or are willing to scurry away from your rotation like a roach when you see a white square racing at you on your minimap.