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UTC 2 : 34 Apr 23, 2024
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#Suggestions #Community Support #Game Presentation
AP/Silver/HR Coefficients should be equal or at least progressive, not random
Apr 15, 2023, 08:26 (UTC)
2673 18
1 2
Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 23:45 (UTC)
# 1

Here are the current coefficients for AP/Silver taken from Garmoth.com data. They are currently ultra-random and do not equal the effort (in gear and skill) required to grind a certain spot. The "Deboreka Neck and Belt are vanity items" argument is just dumb - I'd rather rare drops are completely removed from the equation (and moved to pity pieces / weekly quests) than the current state of the game.

Balancing of Silver/Hour would ideally be done via items (such as Caphras) and not via adjusting the trash loot because of all of the dangers of adding more (and more) silver currency into the game.

AP Coeff = Silver.per.Hour / Min AP / 100000 {rounded down}

Spot Min Ap/dp Siver/Hr Silver/AP/Hr Ap Coeficient (Divided by 100k) Ap Coeficient Truncated Avg Coef (14) Silver / HR Max Coef (27) Silver / HR Scaling Coeficient Scale
Quint Hill 310 617,739,274 1992707.335 19.92707335 19 434,000,000.00 837,000,000.00 837000000 27
Crypt of Resting Thoughts 310 402,811,439 1299391.739 12.99391739 12 434,000,000.00 837,000,000.00 837000000 27
Hexe Sanctuary 300 688,042,885 2293476.283 22.93476283 22 420,000,000.00 810,000,000.00 810000000 27
Gyfin Rhasia Underground 300 528,059,399 1760197.997 17.60197997 17 420,000,000.00 810,000,000.00 810000000 27
Olun's Valley 300 419,641,676 1398805.587 13.98805587 13 420,000,000.00 810,000,000.00 810000000 27
Ash Forest 300 285,468,805 951562.6833 9.515626833 9 420,000,000.00 810,000,000.00 810000000 27
Primal Giant Post 290 335,023,263 1155252.631 11.55252631 11 406,000,000.00 783,000,000.00 783000000 27
Orc Camp 280 529,977,253 1892775.904 18.92775904 18 392,000,000.00 756,000,000.00 644000000 23
Abandoned Monastery 280 498,491,068 1780325.243 17.80325243 17 392,000,000.00 756,000,000.00 644000000 23
Bloody Monastery 280 441,565,618 1577020.064 15.77020064 15 392,000,000.00 756,000,000.00 644000000 23
Jade Starlight Forest 280 419,804,692 1499302.471 14.99302471 14 392,000,000.00 756,000,000.00 644000000 23
Murrowak's Labyrinth 280 303,568,401 1084172.861 10.84172861 10 392,000,000.00 756,000,000.00 644000000 23
Rhutum Outstation 280 301,427,414 1076526.479 10.76526479 10 392,000,000.00 756,000,000.00 644000000 23
Gyfin Rhasia Temple 270 427,494,539 1583313.107 15.83313107 15 378,000,000.00 729,000,000.00 621000000 23
Tunkuta 270 415,737,803 1539769.641 15.39769641 15 378,000,000.00 729,000,000.00 621000000 23
Saunil Camp 270 346,939,725 1284961.944 12.84961944 12 378,000,000.00 729,000,000.00 621000000 23
Padix Island 270 288,432,111 1068267.078 10.68267078 10 378,000,000.00 729,000,000.00 621000000 23
Sycraia Abyssal Ruins (Lower) 260 463,933,748 1784360.569 17.84360569 17 364,000,000.00 702,000,000.00 520000000 20
Swamp Fogan Habitat 260 419,608,585 1613879.173 16.13879173 16 364,000,000.00 702,000,000.00 520000000 20
Swamp Naga Habitat 260 416,712,945 1602742.096 16.02742096 16 364,000,000.00 702,000,000.00 520000000 20
Star's End 260 410,608,368 1579262.954 15.79262954 15 364,000,000.00 702,000,000.00 520000000 20
Star's End Pillars 260 393,498,405 1513455.404 15.13455404 15 364,000,000.00 702,000,000.00 520000000 20
Thornwood Forest 250 421,902,652 1687610.608 16.87610608 16 350,000,000.00 675,000,000.00 500000000 20
Castle Ruins 250 393,473,366 1573893.464 15.73893464 15 350,000,000.00 675,000,000.00 500000000 20
Kratuga Ancient Ruins 250 382,177,155 1528708.62 15.2870862 15 350,000,000.00 675,000,000.00 500000000 20
Winter Tree Fossil 250 379,473,262 1517893.048 15.17893048 15 350,000,000.00 675,000,000.00 500000000 20
Hystria Ruins 250 326,269,362 1305077.448 13.05077448 13 350,000,000.00 675,000,000.00 500000000 20
Aakman Temple 250 275,567,683 1102270.732 11.02270732 11 350,000,000.00 675,000,000.00 500000000 20
Altar Imp Habitat 240 354,039,998 1475166.658 14.75166658 14 336,000,000.00 648,000,000.00 480000000 20
Biraghi Den 240 338,150,354 1408959.808 14.08959808 14 336,000,000.00 648,000,000.00 480000000 20
Mirumok Ruins 240 330,172,662 1375719.425 13.75719425 13 336,000,000.00 648,000,000.00 480000000 20
Manshaum Forest 240 313,588,146 1306617.275 13.06617275 13 336,000,000.00 648,000,000.00 480000000 20
Tooth Fairy Forest 240 272,287,613 1134531.721 11.34531721 11 336,000,000.00 648,000,000.00 480000000 20
Sycraia Underwater Ruins (Upper) 230 278,773,084 1212056.887 12.12056887 12 322,000,000.00 621,000,000.00 345000000 15
Shultz Guard 220 267,699,042 1216813.827 12.16813827 12 308,000,000.00 594,000,000.00 330000000 15
Sherekhan (Night) 210 382,122,650 1819631.667 18.19631667 18 294,000,000.00 567,000,000.00 315000000 15
Sherekhan (Day) 210 285,615,259 1360072.662 13.60072662 13 294,000,000.00 567,000,000.00 315000000 15
Roud Sulfur Mine 210 265,785,435 1265644.929 12.65644929 12 294,000,000.00 567,000,000.00 315000000 15
Pila Ku Jail 210 229,479,198 1092758.086 10.92758086 10 294,000,000.00 567,000,000.00 315000000 15
Navarn Steppe 210 88,072,291 419391.8619 4.193918619 4 294,000,000.00 567,000,000.00 315000000 15
Centaurus Herd 190 350,989,480 1847313.053 18.47313053 18 266,000,000.00 513,000,000.00 285000000 15
Blood Wolf Settlement 190 220,837,950 1162305 11.62305 11 266,000,000.00 513,000,000.00 285000000 15
Basilisk Den 190 88,418,363 465359.8053 4.653598053 4 266,000,000.00 513,000,000.00 285000000 15
Protty Cave 170 276,598,110 1627047.706 16.27047706 16 238,000,000.00 459,000,000.00 255000000 15
Waragon Nest 165 99,384,422 602329.8303 6.023298303 6 231,000,000.00 445,500,000.00 247500000 15
Polly's Forest 160 252,888,410 1580552.563 15.80552563 15 224,000,000.00 432,000,000.00 240000000 15
Traitor's Graveyard 160 172,332,828 1077080.175 10.77080175 10 224,000,000.00 432,000,000.00 240000000 15
Crescent Shrine 140 287,312,711 2052233.65 20.5223365 20 196,000,000.00 378,000,000.00 210000000 15
Cadry Ruins 140 286,408,741 2045776.721 20.45776721 20 196,000,000.00 378,000,000.00 210000000 15
Tshira Ruins 140 239,367,609 1709768.636 17.09768636 17 196,000,000.00 378,000,000.00 210000000 15
Gahaz Bandit's Lair 140 227,457,554 1624696.814 16.24696814 16 196,000,000.00 378,000,000.00 210000000 15
Fadus Habitat 120 233,879,709 1948997.575 19.48997575 19 168,000,000.00 324,000,000.00 180000000 15
Titium Valley 100 274,679,866 2746798.66 27.4679866 27 140,000,000.00 270,000,000.00 150000000 15
Desert Naga Temple 100 227,645,904 2276459.04 22.7645904 22 140,000,000.00 270,000,000.00 150000000 15
Bashim Base 100 214,081,273 2140812.73 21.4081273 21 140,000,000.00 270,000,000.00 150000000 15

Edited: A lot of flakes were triggered by the numbers. Here are the garmoth numbers for no-lifer blue loot scroll (no extra buffs) grinding.

Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 08:30 (UTC)
# 2

Too much effort, too many numbers. Time would be better spent designing revealing, but shoddy, low quality outfits. 

Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 08:40 (UTC)
# 3
On: Apr 15, 2023, 08:30 (UTC), Written by Harth

Too much effort, too many numbers. Time would be better spent designing revealing, but shoddy, low quality outfits. 

And then proceed to release it for only 4 out of 17(?) female classes :D

Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 09:43 (UTC)
# 4

You're calculating from wrong numbers, since the AP recomedations on the maps is misleading and false, and the silver values listed here is off aswell(you can make 1.2B/h in olun even currently and hexe can go up to 1.5b, ash, crypt have higher silver aswell etc...), but regardless while you would have point PA devs neither competent enough for this nor care enough to implement such things.

Also the proper solution would be if there would be at most 3 different spot category for 3 different range of gear, and they would all give around the same amount of money in the given category.

And then they could slightly buff one or two spot from each group tempearly every week/month, so the actuall best spots would contonously rotate, so there would be diversity in the grind spot that the ppl grind so it would be less repetative and the whole map would be ultilized that way.

But again too much effort and they don't care anyway.

244 4634
Lv 63
Hnnie
Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 11:21 (UTC)
# 5
On: Apr 15, 2023, 09:43 (UTC), Written by CatDK

A You're calculating from wrong numbers, since the AP recomedations on the maps is misleading and false, and the silver values listed here is off aswell(you can make 1.2B/h in olun even currently and hexe can go up to 1.5b, ash, crypt have higher silver aswell etc...), But regardless while you would have point PA devs neither competent enough for this nor care enough to implement such things.

C Also the proper solution would be if there would be at most 3 different spot category for 3 different range of gear, and they would all give around the same amount of money in the given category.

D And then they could slightly buff one or two spot from each group tempearly every week/month, so the actuall best spots would contonously rotate, so there would be diversity in the grind spot that the ppl grind so it would be less repetative and the whole map would be ultilized that way.

But again too much effort and they don't care anyway.

A patently red herring argument to undermine the whole article (for some reason...even though we agree). I Used DATA from f-in' garmoth - something I specifically stated. Shit if you click on the CLICKABLE names of each zone, you'll even be led to the garmoth page with said data.

I can make more than that, you can too. That doesn't mean that outliers is what the game should be based upon.

B It's easy to be cynical and go into the "PA is incompetent route". That shouldn't stop people from making suggestions and engaging in good faith debates - unlike this whole f-ing forum that is almost as bad as general chat in-game.

C That's literally the result of using either a progressive or fixed (high) system -_-. Look at the numbers.

D I wouldn't create anything that buffs a spot since that would be reverting back the game to the exact problem it has now - overcrowding on certain spots because of OP Silver/Hr efficiency. The whole point of creating such a system and having spots be so close to each other is exactly to declutter each spot and create viability all over the map.

Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 12:20 (UTC)
# 6

This is certainly a big problem in the game, specially because half the grind spots are just dead because of this dynamic. If a spot doesn't drop something unique or is the best silver/h, there is really no reason to go there. Doesn't even take into consideration that something like centaurs can be abused with a season geared zerker to match the income of someone grinding elvia spots.

Your data is rather misleading though as it seems you calculated all spots with agris, which is not a fair comparison. Some spots will use up a week worth of agris in an hour while other spots will use 1/10 of the agris. If you want to use agris you need to make an agris coefficient. Point is still completely valid, but the numbers seem a bit off.

I think your 2. suggestion is the only solution because inflation already hit us. If you lower the income, prices will still be high for at least a while and it will be a horrible starting experience for new players. People have amassed large amounts of silver, it would cause a multitude of problems. This happened in other MMOs where catching up becomes really difficult because the grind became more difficult for new players, rather than easier, as it should be.

I think what is missing is the AP cap issue, which should not exist in endgame. I think it's good that it exists in early- & midgame to not have very geared players competing with newer players but it has no place in endgame. If you're 730 GS and want to grind Biraghi you should have such a high clear speed that you can make silver close to where you should be grinding with your AP, altough less, to incentivize players to move on.

Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 12:57 (UTC)
# 7
On: Apr 15, 2023, 11:21 (UTC), Written by Zoroaster

D I wouldn't create anything that buffs a spot since that would be reverting back the game to the exact problem it has now - overcrowding on certain spots because of OP Silver/Hr efficiency. The whole point of creating such a system and having spots be so close to each other is exactly to declutter each spot and create viability all over the map.

That bit wouldn't fly with PA. Reason being, they want us to fight each other over grind spots. But they at least state they'd like it to be done in a civilized manner... of sorts. Overcrowding some spots is done with intent. To encourage conflict and saltiness competition.

Treasure item or epeen spots would be fine having low trash/h value (like Ash), but what isn't nice at all is the fact that a 100 AP spot yields better trash (I'm not talking about other items from there) than a 270, 290 AP spot. I mean, grind Desert Fogans and compare the trash there with Elvia saunils, rhutums or giants. Why? Why gear up, even in Tuvala, if all I need to make some good silver is pen Naru? And why wouldn't I grind for gear that ends up - over the vast majority of the gearscore brackets and grind spots - yielding less value. 

A lot of things are awkward and insulting to one's commitment to the game and time. And PA's desire to see us fight over scraps isn't helping much either. I mean it is, if that's what keeps one interested in BDO. But if you don't wanna see every place as a makeshift RBF, then what?

Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 13:28 (UTC)
# 8
On: Apr 15, 2023, 11:21 (UTC), Written by Zoroaster

D I wouldn't create anything that buffs a spot since that would be reverting back the game to the exact problem it has now - overcrowding on certain spots because of OP Silver/Hr efficiency. The whole point of creating such a system and having spots be so close to each other is exactly to declutter each spot and create viability all over the map.

If you want to solve the D then don't bother wasting your breath, PA already said that they want players to compete for the limited rescource.

On: Apr 15, 2023, 11:21 (UTC), Written by Zoroaster

A patently red herring argument to undermine the whole article (for some reason...even though we agree). I Used DATA from f-in' garmoth - something I specifically stated. Shit if you click on the CLICKABLE names of each zone, you'll even be led to the garmoth page with said data.

Garmoth numbers are BS unless you know how to use the numbers correctly. Especially on spot like Olun, where if you don't know what are you doing, then you will going to make significantly less money, but that not mean that the spot makes low money.

Ash and crypt is undervalued since garmoth uses the market price to calculate silver, however that yields false value on items that are traded at max market price.

Ashforest is significantly more easy than crypt (or even oluns) so the difference should be definetly larger in silver than what you wrote here. Same for gyifin.

It's nice that you did put in effort into trying to find a solution, however your input data is wrong, so the end result will not be good either. First you would need to correct the AP that is shown on the map, since those are kinda wrong on the most spots, but even then it ain't really reflect how hard a spot is, especially that some needs other stats aswell.

244 4634
Lv 63
Hnnie
Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 16:35 (UTC)
# 9
On: Apr 15, 2023, 12:20 (UTC), Written by ItWasDsyncIswear

This is certainly a big problem in the game, specially because half the grind spots are just dead because of this dynamic. If a spot doesn't drop something unique or is the best silver/h, there is really no reason to go there. Doesn't even take into consideration that something like centaurs can be abused with a season geared zerker to match the income of someone grinding elvia spots.

Your data is rather misleading though as it seems you calculated all spots with agris, which is not a fair comparison. Some spots will use up a week worth of agris in an hour while other spots will use 1/10 of the agris. If you want to use agris you need to make an agris coefficient. Point is still completely valid, but the numbers seem a bit off.

I think your 2. suggestion is the only solution because inflation already hit us. If you lower the income, prices will still be high for at least a while and it will be a horrible starting experience for new players. People have amassed large amounts of silver, it would cause a multitude of problems. This happened in other MMOs where catching up becomes really difficult because the grind became more difficult for new players, rather than easier, as it should be.

I think what is missing is the AP cap issue, which should not exist in endgame. I think it's good that it exists in early- & midgame to not have very geared players competing with newer players but it has no place in endgame. If you're 730 GS and want to grind Biraghi you should have such a high clear speed that you can make silver close to where you should be grinding with your AP, altough less, to incentivize players to move on.

They should be calculated with Agris, because your target balance audience should be the people that can grind 1 hour per day, not the no-lifers that spend 5+hrs of grinding per day - they should be getting deminishing returns on their hours. But yes, on top of this system, agris needs to be adjusted so that the rate of consumption (aka Agris Coefficient, as you've said) should be equal in each single spot.

AP Caps would matter if Orcs didn't exist. The fact that Orcs (and 3-4 other spots) are the most efficient Silver/hr spots regardless of caps shows you that their model for incentivizing players is not working.

On: Apr 15, 2023, 12:57 (UTC), Written by Harth

That bit wouldn't fly with PA. Reason being, they want us to fight each other over grind spots. But they at least state they'd like it to be done in a civilized manner... of sorts. Overcrowding some spots is done with intent. To encourage conflict and saltiness competition.

Treasure item or epeen spots would be fine having low trash/h value (like Ash), but what isn't nice at all is the fact that a 100 AP spot yields better trash (I'm not talking about other items from there) than a 270, 290 AP spot. I mean, grind Desert Fogans and compare the trash there with Elvia saunils, rhutums or giants. Why? Why gear up, even in Tuvala, if all I need to make some good silver is pen Naru? And why wouldn't I grind for gear that ends up - over the vast majority of the gearscore brackets and grind spots - yielding less value. 

A lot of things are awkward and insulting to one's commitment to the game and time. And PA's desire to see us fight over scraps isn't helping much either. I mean it is, if that's what keeps one interested in BDO. But if you don't wanna see every place as a makeshift RBF, then what?

More like, they want us to fight over 4 grind spots out of 57 in total in the entire game. That doesn't seem like good game design.

On: Apr 15, 2023, 13:28 (UTC), Written by CatDK

If you want to solve the D then don't bother wasting your breath, PA already said that they want players to compete for the limited rescource.

Garmoth numbers are BS unless you know how to use the numbers correctly. Especially on spot like Olun, where if you don't know what are you doing, then you will going to make significantly less money, but that not mean that the spot makes low money.

Ash and crypt is undervalued since garmoth uses the market price to calculate silver, however that yields false value on items that are traded at max market price.

Ashforest is significantly more easy than crypt (or even oluns) so the difference should be definetly larger in silver than what you wrote here. Same for gyifin.

It's nice that you did put in effort into trying to find a solution, however your input data is wrong, so the end result will not be good either. First you would need to correct the AP that is shown on the map, since those are kinda wrong on the most spots, but even then it ain't really reflect how hard a spot is, especially that some needs other stats aswell.

^ As mentioned above, do they want us to compete over only 4 spots in the game? Do they want 50+ other spots to be dead? Do they want players to feel like their gear / effort is not taken into account?

I believe the answer to all of these questions is NO - they don't want most of their game to be shit. However, if players cannot even agree on this and start semantic wars over every_single_suggestion posted on any topic, I understand the hesitance of GMs to relate any of these ideas to the KR devs, since if they come to read them on the forum, they will have to get through all of the vitriol communication that follows them which is probably not a great feeling for someone that loves and works on the game.

Tell me how to use Garmoth numbers correctly then good data sir? Don't just say, "you've used them incorrectly" without saying HOW THEY WERE MISUSED or showing HOW THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE USED (according to you).

Even if the AP numbers are somewhat incorrect, and Garmoth didn't remove all outliers from their avg numbers (which they do), these coefficients would still be quite close to the truth and any adjustments made according to them would bring all places closer to balance according to the gear/effort required to grind them.

But I guess the only available public data that one could input to make any adjustments is not enough for you, and only data from God himself figuring out the divine ratio between grind spots is satisfactory...

Last Edit : Apr 15, 2023, 17:47 (UTC)
# 10

No one cares about this fake data from garmoth.

Show us clean trash, not "golden hour" on private marni zone with scroll, agris and sale of items which: only a fool sells (like caphras), which cannot be sold because there are hundreds of thousands of them for a minimum price (e.g. a traveler's map).

Conclusion: values in this table should be divided by 2 (and some even by 3) for the result to be correct.

Eg. waragons nest - 165m. I killed some waragons during event and the real earnings is 85m per hour. Polly - 487m? Rotfl. That's where I play for event seal and by the way I'm counting on great marni stone and real profit from trash is .... 130m per hour.

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