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UTC 1 : 21 Jul 22, 2024
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What is the goal of open world pvp in 2024?
Apr 17, 2024, 01:38 (UTC)
4537 221
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Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 18:14 (UTC)
# 41
On: Apr 19, 2024, 17:44 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud

But people are still griefing, even without pk. It's called KS and when it happens endlessly, it's a plague and it's not punished,"sir". 

What are your options?

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 19:30 (UTC)
# 42
On: Apr 17, 2024, 17:27 (UTC), Written by HammerJho

I think what's disgusting is the sheer number of players who can't admit that they're too soft for Arsha but still beat their chests about "OWPvP" being removed. They want soft PvP but can't admit that since they also want to look like big boys. Arsha can be what you want but critical mass of those starved for OWPvP have to be willing to move over and be at the bottom of the food chain until a healthier more balanced playerbase develops. Until you guys take that step, you're functionally identical to the rest of the PvE'rs but whinier.

The problem with your argument is neglecting the two main core issues that players are actually complaining about when it comes to the recent OWPVP changes on normal channel.  When people want to PVP just for the sake of PVP'ing -- they, very much indeed, go to Arsha.  Flag on whoever you want, anytime you want.  That, however, is not the core issue of this, so-called, "beating of chests" you speak of.

The core issues are two-fold, harm "what made BDO, BDO", and are VERY easy to identify when you use more than two braincells and stop those two braincells from fighting for third place.  The "go to Arsha" argument has been beated, debunked, and torn to shreds ad nauseum here on the forum.  The two core issues extrapolate into other related issues as well.

1)  Greatly reduced orgnanic, player-driven player interaction.

2)  Removing player-driven ways to deal with griefing.

Greatly reduced orgnanic, player-driven player interaction.  The choices you made when interacting with others mattered,  Grind zones are intentionally designed in an open-free-for-all manner -- anyone can grind anywhere their gear permits.  Grind zones are treated as a resource in BDO.  Because of how grind zones are desgined, with resources being laid-out in a "free-for-all" manner, this, naturally, produces conflict when two or more players are vying for the same resource.  HOW players resolved said conflict was part-and-parcel of the BDO experience.  Do you work things out diplomatically and come to an agreement over the spot?  Do you harrass each other?  Or do you wage an all out guild versus guild war?  Do you choose less contested rotations due to wanting to avoid these conflicts?  Or do you choose the best, most profitable, rotation, but risk a conflict?  These meaningful choices fueled the BDO experience in grind zones for years. 

Alliances can form this way.  Guild rivalries born from these organic interactions between players.  BDO is largely a solo-focused MMO.  These interactions were the main ways players interacted with each other in BDO during active gameplay.  What's an MMORPG without player interaction during gameplay?  And, with the recent changes to OWPVP, these meaningful decisions are gone...and that's NOT a good thing.  BDO is, literally, the only MMORPG I can think of where players have this perma-affixed mindset of "leave me alone in an MMORPG".

Removing player-driven ways to deal with griefing.  GVG was the primary means to defend one's self, in an active, non-passive manner when someone grinded over you, or was kill-stealing mobs in a rotation you've been grinding.  This fact, simply, cannot be argued.  It was the only "fair" way to deal with this because every other option results in the victim losing something, the victim being the one who was minding their own business while someone rudely intruded on their gameplay.  Obviously, you can try diplomacy, but diplo doesn't always work.  In those cases, GVG was used.  Now, GVG has effectively been killed.  Which not only removes the only viable and "fair" way to deal with this form of griefing, but also removes the thrill of OW grinding.  You cannot tell me, with a straight face, that OW grinding in circles for hundreds of hours is "thrilling", especially compared to a healthy GVG.  With the changes, players, not only, are allowed to grief others by grinding on top of others with zero recourse (contradicting the game's OW grind zone design explained above), but also removed this thrilling aspect of grinding mobs in BDO.  Not only thrilling, but FUN.  You know, that F-word that PA is so scared of?  F U N?  Do you or they even know what "FUN" is?  Obvously it's subjective -- but in the most widely accepted way -- tell me that grinding in circles for thousands of hours for gear that doesn't even matter is more fun than a healthy GVG.  Tell me that with a straight face.  Oh, let me guess, "not everyone likes PVP", right?  Two words -->  MARNI'S REALM.  Here's another two --> SWAP CHANNEL.  Or another -->  GUILD PROTECTION.  Hello??

GVG was ALWAYS a reason to gear up -- it gave tangible meaning for gear.  Now, the only tabgible meaninig to gear is, what -- 5-10% more income in hourly grind and RBF?

You can argue that the OWPVP is BDO resulted in many toxic interactions in the past.  And I 100% agree with that.  What I am calling you out on is how stupid the "go to Arsha" argument is when refuting the very valid complaints that players have regarding OWPVP on normal channels.  It's dismissive at best and completely ignorant at worst.  The devs could've made so, so, SO many alternative changes that, 1) greatly reduced toxicity due to the flag system, and 2) kept organic interactions between players, meaningful decisons, and a tool to deal with rotation-griefing in tact.  Things that addressed those toxic interactions while keeping the "spirit" of BDO alive. 

Things like re-working the inherently broken Karma system, re-working grouping up in grind zones, even solo spots, the Marni's Realm changes already give a way to avoid OWPVP entirely so WTF PA, or even something like making GVG's automatically drop off after a certain amount of time to reduce guild-camping.  SO many alternative things.  Yet PA does PA things and makes the game worse while listening to their shareholders and CEOs who don't even play video games to being with.  Clownworld.

That being said, BDO is a video game.  It's meant for entertainment purposes.  I no longer find BDO as entertaining as it once was.  Which, I believe is a blessing.  IRL > BDO, every day of the week.  But that also being said.  What the devs have done to this product is sad to see, since I have this old-school mindset on the game.  I actually value the core things and I don't see BDO as merely a PVE-only instanced "leave me alone in an MMORPG" game.  I saw it as the premiere sandbox OWPVX MMORPG, the only one of its kind.  It's not that anymore, it's very clearly the former, how that can be argued, I have no idea.  This comment will get downvoted.  I don't care.  Donwvoters can deny FACTS all you want.  I'll just sit back and enjoy seeing PA's profits continue to decline in amusment while continue to release DoA content, having actual fun doing other things.

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 19:53 (UTC)
# 43
On: Apr 19, 2024, 18:14 (UTC), Written by Vanraven

What are your options?

A proper, well-thought, working set of owpvp rules. Right now, we have only J's stubbornness, and it didn't solve anything. Keyword : "solve". Avoiding is not solving. 

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 20:33 (UTC)
# 44
On: Apr 19, 2024, 19:53 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud

A proper, well-thought, working set of owpvp rules. Right now, we have only J's stubbornness, and it didn't solve anything. Keyword : "solve". Avoiding is not solving. 

So you have no way to avoid KSing?

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 20:34 (UTC)
# 45
On: Apr 17, 2024, 03:19 (UTC), Written by Josuyelin

The problem is that you also eliminate the possibility of defending yourself, if someone bothers you in the spot that you are going to do, you cannot kill him because the one who loses is you, so either you leave or you farm together as friends because you cannot declare war on him, because because he must accept it first.

People say this all the time like this happens all the time on regular servers where you run into people who are willing to int their own buffs & loot, and get crappy loot/hr by messing with an already camped spot.  I've seen disputes happen but usually from a bully wanting to come in and take over a spot, killing people who are pve buffed running pve spec/crystals/addons.  For the most part people don't want to screw themselves over by wasting buffs and loot over a spot someone is already at.  I can't say I had even a single instance of this happening in probably 6 months.  

If you want open world pvp and pve, go on arsha, and you'll get lots of it.  We see it all the time, it's endless pvp fights on arsha if that's what you seek.  Certain streamers stream this every night, it's always red and always fights there on arsha.  Sometimes you get bothered so often where even Mr Choice gets tired of getting disrupted when he's pve buffed and wanting to shoot for a goal.  The point is though, open world pvp is there, just go on arsha.  If you don't want to arsha, then don't complain about open world pvp lol.  Stop using these made up excuses for wanting to flag up on tuvala timmies at random pve grind spots on the regular servers.

There's a serious loud vocal minority trying to tell everyone that open world pvp is ded or that PA did this, PA did that.  That's just not what we can see, watch any Family members stream, they're always fighting people on arsha.  Watch Choice, the guy grinds for 20 mins and gets interrupted by 30 mins of pvp all the time, every day.  Open world pvp is there on arsha if you want it.  There's also Guild League and it's great fun to pvp with the homies.  Find a downtime?  There'a always rbf and arena of solare.  Oh it's 6pm pst?  Hop into nodewars & sieges and pvp for an hour or two.  If you can't find pvp in this game, you're doing it wrong.

Lv Private
Leholme
Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 21:13 (UTC)
# 46

I think that one sided decs had legitimate uses - to allow people to protect grind spots.  Sadly, PA took a sledgehammer and eliminated them vs more surgically curbing abuses of perma deccs that were used to settle personal scores.

While I understand some pkr's reaction in wishing to teach PA a lesson, they accomplished the opposite.  PA doubled down twice on punishing pkrs.    It's not working.

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 21:43 (UTC)
# 47
On: Apr 19, 2024, 20:34 (UTC), Written by Gavyne

People say this all the time like this happens all the time on regular servers where you run into people who are willing to int their own buffs & loot, and get crappy loot/hr by messing with an already camped spot.  I've seen disputes happen but usually from a bully wanting to come in and take over a spot, killing people who are pve buffed running pve spec/crystals/addons.  For the most part people don't want to screw themselves over by wasting buffs and loot over a spot someone is already at.  I can't say I had even a single instance of this happening in probably 6 months.  

If you want open world pvp and pve, go on arsha, and you'll get lots of it.  We see it all the time, it's endless pvp fights on arsha if that's what you seek.  Certain streamers stream this every night, it's always red and always fights there on arsha.  Sometimes you get bothered so often where even Mr Choice gets tired of getting disrupted when he's pve buffed and wanting to shoot for a goal.  The point is though, open world pvp is there, just go on arsha.  If you don't want to arsha, then don't complain about open world pvp lol.  Stop using these made up excuses for wanting to flag up on tuvala timmies at random pve grind spots on the regular servers.

There's a serious loud vocal minority trying to tell everyone that open world pvp is ded or that PA did this, PA did that.  That's just not what we can see, watch any Family members stream, they're always fighting people on arsha.  Watch Choice, the guy grinds for 20 mins and gets interrupted by 30 mins of pvp all the time, every day.  Open world pvp is there on arsha if you want it.  There's also Guild League and it's great fun to pvp with the homies.  Find a downtime?  There'a always rbf and arena of solare.  Oh it's 6pm pst?  Hop into nodewars & sieges and pvp for an hour or two.  If you can't find pvp in this game, you're doing it wrong.

Arsha has been in existence and it's purpose has never chaged -- unrestricted OWPVP.  We've ALWAYS used Arsha for that -- flag on anyone, anytime.  Finding PVP via instanced or preconstructed modes is NOT the problem either.  These are not the problem people are speaking of and mentioning the "go to Arsha" in relation to complaints about the changes to normal channel OWPVP mechanics is lazy + uneducated at best and an ignorant deflection of the argument at worst. 

All you said in relation to the complaint you're quoting, which is an argument that goes over how viable means of spot defense are greatly diminished, or outright removed, is;

"I've seen disputes happen but usually from a bully wanting to come in and take over a spot, killing people who are pve buffed running pve spec/crystals/addons.  (speculative evidence:  an argument with an appeal to data that hasnt' actually been collected)".

"For the most part people don't want to screw themselves over by wasting buffs and loot over a spot someone is already at.  (more specualtive evidence)"

"I can't say I had even a single instance of this happening in probably 6 months. (anecdotal evidence:  an argument that is not based on objective, measurable means)"

The only rebuttal you had to the person you're quoting is "oh, I haven't seen what you're complaining as much as you make it out to be" and leave it at that.  You really have no argument at all, whatsoever, that can be accurately assessed or measured.

Of course griefing happened -- it happens in more ways than PK.  In fact, that's what the person you're repsonding to is complaining about -- greifing and the lack of a viable way to defend one's self from it in an active manner.  Rotation griefing, or when someone starts grinding over someone who was there prior, IDK how much you've actually played the game, but I've had WAY more instances of players trying to grind over me than I've had players trying to PK me out of nowhere.  The problem with anecdotal and speculative evidence is your experience and PoV versus mine are completely opposite, so where are we?  Nowhere.  Anecdotes and specualtions are useless.  Albeit appeal to emotions well, so if that's your goal here -- appealing to emotions and not facts -- then good job.  You have successfully appealed to emotions while being completely devoid of any objectively measured data or any referenceable facts.  Bravo.

OWPVP on normal channels gave way for organic, player-driven, player interactions and "player-made" content.  This is a fact since it abides by the definition of "organic, player-driven" and how interactions could give way to organically conjured GVG, which is a form of "player-made content".

OWPVP, or GVG, was also one of the only viable and "fair" ways for grind spot disputes to be settled in an active manner.  This is a fact because any other way to defend one's self resulted in the victim (the person grinding first while someone else started grinding on top of them) losing something when diplomacy doesn't work.  "Fair" is in quotations because, while gear and skill disparities exist, when taken in a competitive context with BDO's guild-system and "free-for-all" grind zone design in mind, people could GVG in fairness in that context.  In other words, it's Open World.  Not AoS.

For a more in-depth reponse of your "go to Arsha" argument, see my response in post #42 of this thread here.  Or scroll up.  Basically, my conclusion is that PA could've implemented many other alternatives that greatly reduced toxicity in OWPVP while keeping BDO's open world sandbox PVX MMORPG spirit in tact.  Instead of turining it into the PVE-only, leave me alone in an MMORPG, instanced grinder it is today.

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 21:33 (UTC)
# 48
On: Apr 19, 2024, 20:33 (UTC), Written by Vanraven

So you have no way to avoid KSing?

Yes, I do, in a whole pvpve system and I mention through several topics my ideas and even created a topic about an idea, just check my profile. But with the current mess, there's no magical band-aid. PA have been using band-aids for too long, it's time for a proper pvpve system. 

Now, be honest, you don't care about that, you just want to go ad hominem, right ? ;) 

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 21:48 (UTC)
# 49

No thats not it at all. I've been playing mmos for quite sometime and one thing I know is openpvp never works. There is always these kind of issues. This is particularly in the west, in South Korea, the climate is very different. There is general respect among players. They didn't even know what "karma bombing" was. Because there is no such thing there. The only semi solution is to create a open world faction based pvp. It some what worked for Aion. But open pvp like this? Nah, it will always be highly toxic.

The thing is though what people have to realize is BDO has been out for 8 years right? And suddenly PA makes significant changes to their open world pvp system. What this should tell everyone is that it has not worked out for them. They changed it because it likely is harming their business. Remember to them BDO is not a game its a business. They are looking for growth, bigger numbers and likely they identifed the openworld pvp system as one of the reason that they are not growing. Hence the change, if it was working and numbers were growing they would of never changed it. Businesses don't change things that are bringing them success financially. This shows a few things imo. The biggest being that very vocal players who liked the old open world pvp system brought in very little money to them. If they did there would simply be no change. Things would just stay the same because its profitable. 

Last Edit : Apr 19, 2024, 21:51 (UTC)
# 50
On: Apr 19, 2024, 21:33 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud

Yes, I do, in a whole pvpve system and I mention through several topics my ideas and even created a topic about an idea, just check my profile. But with the current mess, there's no magical band-aid. PA have been using band-aids for too long, it's time for a proper pvpve system. 

Now, be honest, you don't care about that, you just want to go ad hominem, right ? ;) 

I might be cynical by saying this, but IMO, the only way for BDO to regain it's PVPVE roots is if the players accept it.  Even if profits are down, overall player sentiment might be down (at least among vets), despite the game being nowhere near an OWPVEVP game anymore...if the casuals / masses keep complaining about it, then we won't ever go back.  I've lost all hope in BDO's open world gameplay ever recapturing the glory days or honor, pride, and fighting alongside our guildmates in the game's beautifully crafted gameworld.

I think I'm finally facing the fact that BDO is no longer the premiere open world PVEVP sandbox MMORPG anymore, and instead, is a glorified hub-based PVE-only, instanced, leave me alone in an MMORPG, grinder.

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