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UTC 13 : 18 Jul 17, 2024
CEST 15 : 18 Jul 17, 2024
PDT 6 : 18 Jul 17, 2024
EDT 9 : 18 Jul 17, 2024
Constructive: DR Changes are extremely unhealthy for the game.
Jun 20, 2024, 21:26 (UTC)
2291 32
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Last Edit : Jun 28, 2024, 17:31 (UTC)
# 1

Family Name: Kozuka

Region (NA/EU): EU

Suggestions/Comments:

I'll start by saying I appreciate what PA tried to do with this patch. The design intent is not the problem - the hit changes to improve server perfromance, and attempt to improve the experience for players fighting against full evaision builds, all make sense in principle.

TL:DR - These DR changes are incredibly damaging to the long term health of PvP in this game.


The new DR changes, coupled with the increased damage reduction many classes receive from Block and Super Armour, has negatively resulted in two major things:

1. It has completely changed the feel of the games combat in uncapped environments. It's subjective as to if you think this is better or worse - my opinion is that it's much, much worse. It has harmed the unique combat experience that BDO provided in the marketplace that was largely it's biggest selling point. When players cried out for the removal of the 'one shot meta', what they definitely did not mean is for that to replaced with 8 minute duels, 'tanky' classes taking absolutely no damage, and players outhealing incoming hits in 1 v 5 scenarios.

2. It has created a punishing gear gap unlike the game has ever seen (worse than the 'Renown' changes from 6 years ago, which had a similar effect and were sensibly reverted). The game now feels unfair to play.

It was widely accepted within the PVP community that above 310AP, a good player could usually fight against almost anyone 1 v 1, regardless of their gearscore. Inevitably, gear gaps made this more difficult, but a 710gs player who could survive to execute their combos perfectly had a reasonable chance of beating a 730-740gs player.

Post-patch, this is no longer the case. Gear rules all. You can witness this at a glance in RBF - pre patch, there would be a pretty broad spectrum of players with kill counts ranging from 1-5, 6-15, and 15+ for the best geared players. Post patch, it's very clear who the geared players are - the ones with 20+ kills, while the 'average' player is now strugging to get more than 6-7 a match, many players are clearly struggling to score even 2.

Players that arn't 'mitigation' focused - the glass cannon/assassin classes which make up a large % of the player base, have been left completely gutted by this patch. They benefit very little from the DR improvements, and largely survive for about as long as before. Entire classes function around the principle of 'kill before you are killed' - Archer, Ranger, Dark Knight, Ninja, Kuno, Hash, to name a few obvious examples. A reasonable change to the pace of fights would have been for these classes to require 2 full combos to kill their targets, rather than 1 - however the impact is so extreme in uncapped, that in many casses, it is not possible to for these classes to kill their targets with any numbers of combos before they inevitably lose the war of attrition and die.

What this results in is a bitter feeling of unfairness. Having a higher gearscore should be rewarded in PVP - but not to the extent where players feel completely powerless if they are outgeared. The long term effect of this is the erosion of the uncapped PvP player base to the point where such a small number of players are left, PvP can barely happen.

The best geared, best guilds were already dominant in uncapped PvP and RBF - they didn't need a rework patch to validate their progression achievements and allow them to win vs lower geared players. Now, there won't be any 'lower geared' players in the PvP scene for them to fight against.

Suggestions:
- Re-assess the need for class damage modifiers. This now feels like a legacy design choice that has become a hindrance to class balance and the feel of the game over the years.
- Reduce or remove the amount of bonus DR added with the patch
- Adjust the relationship between AP and DR scaling to result in a slightly tankier game that still feels fair to play for all classes (similar to capped content, which seems to be in a much healthier place).
- Adjust "Special Evasion" - spreading the same amount of damage across less hits massively enhances it's value, and creates incredibly 'swingy' damage spikes where your abilities can potentially do nothing.

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 05:03 (UTC)
# 2

yup agree to this bro, well resumed

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 06:13 (UTC)
# 3

Good take on the game state. If i may, i would love to give additional input on what they could do to fix this. 

Chnage the AP and DP Brackets: 

Currently, Tank classes can build with cadry or manos earrings and still deal a lot of damage because the bonus AP gained from low Brackets such as 261,269 etc is massive. This in combination with the recent patch leads to unkillable tanks like strikers, valks etc. just tanking 1v5 while still being able to kill you in 1 or 1,5 combos. 

I would argue that a Tank that builds manos or cadry and sacrifices sheet AP should not be able to kill anyone with 1-2 combos. It is unfair to the DPS classes that are still squishy and basically 1 shot once they get cced. 

So I would argue that we should shift the AP Brackets up. Let them start at 290 AP, give a lot of AP hidden at around 320 AP and slowly reduce the amount of AP gained after that. This would mean that if you are building very high Sheet AP you gain considerably more AP than any Tank with Manos or Cadry making it possible for DPS classes to survive combos from Tank players and forcing Valks that want to play for kills to actually build AP instead of DP accessories. 

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 06:50 (UTC)
# 4

Adding to this: rework special evasion

It's absurd that PA thought of "fixing" evasion with the hits change and not special evasion, it is now by far the strongest coin flip in combat that could exist, as shown by the thousands of preorders on charm perfumes.

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 09:24 (UTC)
# 5
On: Jun 20, 2024, 21:26 (UTC), Written by Kozuka

2. It has created a punishing gear gap unlike the game has ever seen (worse than the 'Renown' changes from 6 years ago, which had a similar effect and were sensibly reverted). The game now feels unfair to play.


Yes especially because basically every gearscore you get from AP can easily be convertet to DR Just switch AP accessorie to DR. But this only benefits classes that are digned to be a tank, almost all assasins dont get much out of it.

So for a Warrior with 750 GS lets say 309 AP / 441 DP he already is super tanky now just because of the changes, but if he goes 280AP ish and 470DP he already reaches the in 1v1 unkillable state and even against multiple opponents.

But take an 340 AP 410 DP Dark Knight instead. Even with equal gear score, she doeal very little against the Warrior and if the Warrior grabs her, she is absolutely dead.

So what about going 301 AP and 450 DP Dark Knight? Well done now you survive a bit longer, not realy though. But also now u are utterly useless against the warrior and even againt everybody else, gg. And thats equal GS, imagine people with a geargap of 30+. This actually is Renown but worse.

I realy don't see how assasin classes can survive this patch.

People wanting to be able to survive a combo is fine but.

I already said it again and again before. People are squishy by choice.

They were going 320/430 and think they sould be tanky, hell no thats clearly an offensive build.

And even 301/ 450 is still an more offensive build than defense.

But they don't want to go 250/500 because, "Mimimi then i don't deal damage anymore",  yeah guess what if you want to not take damage then you should also not deal damage. AP meta is an entirely made up thing, at least it is caused by the players itself not by the game, most people want to deal damage, and chose to sacrifice the dp.

For clearity, the obove statement was about how it was before the patch. And the complaints now after the patch just prove that the statement was true all the time. Also the complaints are absolutely valid because PA should have known this too.

EDIT: Now we are robbed of the choice to be a glass cannon, because PA just said, no more glass cannons, killing people quickly is a big no no now. YOU HAVE TO BE TANKY, NOW. Even if you dount want or your class is not designed for that.

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 16:41 (UTC)
# 6

1.  That's exactly what we asked for, for literal years now.

2.  The gear gap isn't that crazy, the class power gap is what's crazy.  This hasn't changed.  That said a gear gap is a good thing for a progression based game.  It gives you a reason to push gear, and if gear imbalance is an issue to you there are capped wars and AOS where you can do PVP without this gap.

That said, there are things that need to change to improve balance:

- The class mods need to go, its the biggest problem with this entire patch.  You can't balance 5 different damage reduction systems in any sort of compitent way.  The DR should stay, its the only thing making the more glass classes even reasonably playable again and the blatant outliers wouldn't be as crazy if they weren't already taking 20%+ less damage for existing.

- SA Block needs a change, it always has, it always will as long as its allowed to exist in the game as is.  Either a stamina cost or SA needs to drop off after a few seconds of usage or something.  Anything to force shield classes to actually use a skill.

- Block break needs to be added to a few classes that have 0 ability to deal with block classes (no grab and no existing break mechanic)

- Protections need adjusted.  There's too many classes that are nearly impossible to CC, and CCing/comboing is what we want to see happening.

- Healing/recovery needs to be looked at, its far too free to get health back now and it creates bigger gaps between tanky and non-tanky classes.

- Spec eva, I'm torn on this one but consistancy in damage is a good thing so I'd rather it be removed.

- Resists, gone, out, removed, eliminate completely from pvp (keep them for pve).

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 18:35 (UTC)
# 7

I love the new changes. This is the game i want to play. I want Developer to do the development of the game, and people should stop crying.
This is the reason Devs loses so much time, cause they are trying to catter to everyone, which is never going to work.

Just do what you want to do with the game and ignore the crybabies.

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 19:02 (UTC)
# 8

The whole thing about reducing hits is a bandaid fix to an server load/engine issue.

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 19:02 (UTC)
# 9
On: Jun 21, 2024, 06:50 (UTC), Written by MRKN

Adding to this: rework special evasion

It's absurd that PA thought of "fixing" evasion with the hits change and not special evasion, it is now by far the strongest coin flip in combat that could exist, as shown by the thousands of preorders on charm perfumes.

Added to the OP.

Last Edit : Jun 21, 2024, 19:44 (UTC)
# 10
On: Jun 21, 2024, 18:35 (UTC), Written by LordBagbuna

I love the new changes. This is the game i want to play. I want Developer to do the development of the game, and people should stop crying.
This is the reason Devs loses so much time, cause they are trying to catter to everyone, which is never going to work.

Just do what you want to do with the game and ignore the crybabies.

Its funny that you say that while your class is one of the most favored after this patch dont you think? Nahhhhh totally a coincidence

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