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#Hashashin
Hashashin Issues - 15/11/2024
Nov 15, 2024, 10:54 (UTC)
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Last Edit : Nov 22, 2024, 20:30 (UTC)
# 1

Hey my name is MadMarv, I am helping with moderating Hashashin discord and because of that I am really active in the Hashashin community. 

I have been gathering the problems different players in Hashashin Class Discord have with the class and want to shine a light on some issues we see as a community with the state of Hash.  

Disclaimer:

Generally Hash is in a decent spot, he is no where near the bottom, when you look at class balance. There still are issues, that if fixed, would make the class feel more complete and prevent frustrating mechanics. These changes are mostly aimed at PvE or Quality of Life and should not change the PvP performance (if possible).

Please look at these suggestions as individual changes!

Succession Hashashin

Key Inputs

Issue

- Some people have a lot of trouble with the activation of Rupture, TailCutter and Paradise Beckons, because they all activate with RMB, just in different situations.
- The problem with this is, that you can get hit in SA by other classes and this skips into the wrong animation.

Solution

- Change Rupture input to RMB + LMB; this input is not taken and would solve the problems with this skill
- Paradise Beckons; please remove this skill. It has never been used and is totally pointless. It is more of a meme than anything

Tornados

Hashs (especially succs) best mechanic, it is really fun tho keep them up and micro manage them, but they also create the most problems in hashs kit.

Issues

1) Tornados are summons and therefore apply summon damage. This means that they scale only with ap, crit chance and accuracy and do not interact with spot mechanics like color buffs at gyfin. This is a common issue with classes that have summon damage and a solution for all classes would be great.
- Take a look at summon damage for all classes and provide a solution for spots with spot mechanics.
2) Tornados are slow and sometimes have a mind of their own. They are completely useless at spots where you move a lot, you can control and move them, but they sometimes bug out and randomly move.
- Speed up the tornado movement speed, so they can group faster and are more versatile.
3) Tornadoes do a ton of damage, but stacking them up can take a lot of time and you need to resummon them all the time, because they are on a cooldown.
- It would be great if you could just extend the duration of the tornados instead of completely resummoning them, but this would need a larger rework.
4) Tornados can wake up mobs (like gyfin mobs) and therefore harm your grind, instead of being useful.
- Please make Tornados unsummonable somehow -> click aals breath when its on cd.

Tornado Hot Take

- Personally I believe that there is too much damage on the tornados and that it should be moved to normal skills. This would fix succ hashs performance at spots where you need to move a lot.
- With this change succ hash would be more viable at spots like tungrad ruins or at high gear levels, where stacking up the tornados is a waste of time, because just bursting the pack down is faster...
- I would personally prefer them to constantly apply a -dp debuff and act similar to Witch's red orb with a small amount of damage. This would also give some party scaling (if the debuff is applying ontop of normal ones)
- A skill that explodes the tornados and resets a bit of the cooldown would also be great. This makes the nados better at early game.

Bugs

- Aals Breath is usually used for stealth, you jump into a tornado and vanish. Sadly in AoS you get a big SA symbol next to you, which makes this stealth mechanic completely unusable. Other classes dont have this problem and just vanish completely. Just make sure that the symbol is not shown. People still see the tornados and can attack them or try to grab you out of it.
- Hashashins skill animations are laggy after the hit reduction change. They look choppy and cut off when you hit a target.

Suggested Skill Changes/Reworks

- Rupture
    - Should get a prime version with some additional damage (keep the PvP damage the same as before) and a broader conal AOE. The skill itself is animation locked and easily punishable. Goal is to make it more used in PvE.
- Prime Shadow Splitter
    - This is our new evasion debuff.
    - Sadly it is basically a glorified auto attack, that cant be canceled and has two super slow hits that are also unprotected. Therefore its almost NEVER used.
    - Just keep everything, but make it canceleable after hit 1, it still does no damage, but is useable at least.
- Prime Hourglass of Death
    - Give it the full SA change you already tried out on Glab and remove the CC (Bound).
- Prime Blade's Pact (E Buff)
    - Give any relevant PvE damage modifier. Even if its just overriding the normal ap buff and giving a bit more ap, like with awakening. It is completely useless in PvE otherwise and you do not have the small power spike that other classes have with their e buff. (Find a way to not overbuff PvP)
- Please find a way to buff our movment. Either rework the rabams like suggested in the last section or add a skill to succession, which does not affect awakening. Something like Prime: Sand Tornado could be an option.

Awakening Hashashin

Awakening is well polished and is pretty good at all types of PvE or PvP. Some smaller QoL changes could still be made.

Bugs

- Awakening hash has a problem with keeping his attack stance after being cced. We cant properly recreate it, but sometimes we stand up without a weapon drawn and then die because of it.

Suggested Skill Changes

- Rework the 100% skill
    - The 100% rage skill is currently on a movement skill (Paradise Surge) and is not great to use. Many people chose to just not use it and simply absorb the rage or use the pre awakening 100% (Quicksand).
    - In PvP it is even worse, because it has a decently long windup animation where you just sit in SA and then shoot forward in a locked animation.

Generel Changes

Rabams

After the DR/EVA changes many of our Rabams lost their identity. We had +dp buff removed and -eva reduced and now they are just bad SA skills or completely useless. Also Movement options for succ are needed, which can be easily implemented by reworking the 3rd Rabams.

Rabam 1

- Dominion Slash was a good -eva skill, but now its just way worse than Shadow Splitter (which is also bad), so it is only okay pve filler damage
- Prophecy Blade was our main PvP rabam skill, as it gave +20dp, now it is just a short SA skill, that you need to cancel fast to not get cced out
Please rework these in some meaningful way.

Rabam 2

- Mirage Assault is a good way to jump behind targets, its fine and unprotected.
- Aals Mirage is just a worse version of Mirage Assault, nobody uses it, as it is activated through blocking.

Rabam 3

These Rabams are movement options and are especially important for succ hash. Please just remove the CCs and make them pure movement skills, because succ hash really lacks movement, but has tons of CCs.
- Shadow Slicer is used by most, because it has the shorter cooldown of both skills. Make it a full SA skill and remove the stiffness cc. Change the cooldown from 16s to 10s.
- Sand Tornado is a SA into Iframe movement skill with cc at the end. Just remove the cc and rebalance the cooldown time from 30s to around 15-20s, as a more protected version of Shadow Slicer.
If you have any additions or concerns with these suggestions feel free to post them below.

PA please fix!

Last Edit : Nov 15, 2024, 16:03 (UTC)
# 2

Great post! Succession Hashashin is one of the most (if not the most) unique class in the game, and it's extremely disheartening to see that you can't play that class at certain high-end spots like Tungrad Ruins.

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FRNO_HS
Last Edit : Nov 20, 2024, 18:20 (UTC)
# 3

I agree with most of the changes, but I would change a couple of things (PVP).

Succession Hashashin

Suggested Skill Changes/Reworks

Prime Chosen Blade: I agree with putting the entire animation in SA but the CC would have to be moved to another skill since it is the only knockdown we have.
- Hourglass of Death: It is one of the most used skills but it has a small gap at the end of the skill. Give it the full SA so that it does not have gaps when concatenating with other skills such as "Prime Chosen Blade".

Lv Private
Xetaan
Last Edit : Nov 22, 2024, 20:31 (UTC)
# 4
On: Nov 20, 2024, 18:20 (UTC), Written by Cortes

I agree with most of the changes, but I would change a couple of things (PVP).

Succession Hashashin

Suggested Skill Changes/Reworks

Prime Chosen Blade: I agree with putting the entire animation in SA but the CC would have to be moved to another skill since it is the only knockdown we have.
- Hourglass of Death: It is one of the most used skills but it has a small gap at the end of the skill. Give it the full SA so that it does not have gaps when concatenating with other skills such as "Prime Chosen Blade".

You are totally right, that was a mistake on my part. I corrected it. I meant to write "remove the Bound on Hourglass of Death and make it full SA".

Last Edit : Nov 29, 2024, 19:24 (UTC)
# 5

I say Do Not Change The Key for Rupture..

---But yeah Paradise beckons needs to be changed or revamped.

Hashahin Rabam (Shadow slicer movement rabam) was op before they nerf it. cuz it was perma iframe and movement. 

---Yes, Aals mirage not many people doesn't use it including me. lol But I had a fun times testing it on hour glass skill. its very risky to use it tho. takes tons of timing. and the cd is too long for it to be that type of a skill. this rabam needs revamp or change

---I agree about the tornado thing sometimes it doesn't follow.

---I Agree with Sand tornado Rabam needs to lower down the CD or just revamped so people would find it useful. 

 --I do not agree to the E buff changes tho. that will be broken and too strong for pve.

---About the Succ hash not being able to grind tungrad ruins? I don't know about that. But I use Succ hash to grind Tungrad. and it's fine.

Last Edit : Nov 30, 2024, 00:10 (UTC)
# 6
On: Nov 29, 2024, 19:08 (UTC), Written by CoupDeGrace

I say Do Not Change The Key for Rupture..

 --I do not agree to the E buff changes tho. that will be broken and too strong for pve.

---About the Succ hash not being able to grind tungrad ruins? I don't know about that. But I use Succ hash to grind Tungrad. and it's fine.

Thanks for the feedback! I want to adress some things, to keep improving this post and maybe start a discussion. 

1) Do you have another idea for solving the input problem for Rupture and Tailcutter? Like rather giving Tailcutter another input?

2) I dont think just giving 10 ap would do much, as most other classes already have it. Yes it changes pvx performance, 10 ap are still 10 ap, but otherwise it just feels completely useless. 

3) How do you define "fine"? We gathered multiple hours for Tungrad from really experienced succ Hash players and they were all pretty bad. I for example did multiple hours and got 22k average at 343 ap (before the range nerf, fully buffed and min maxed, no NW buff) thats roughly succ nova level and up to 10k+ trash below a meta class. I agree, that not every class needs to be op or something, but its also pretty painful to grind. You got pet damage, bad movement, relatively low aoe on most skills and more stuff. 

Last Edit : Nov 30, 2024, 20:31 (UTC)
# 7

 1) Yes, my Idea? is maybe to give everyone an option so they able to change the Skill keybind for every skill  they prefer.  so if people want to change it for their own benefit or if they think it'll be easier for them. and for the people who don't wanna change theirs they could stay with the older Skill keybind.  

2) even with infinite blockjump? if you put monster ap or human damage or popping any AP buff on Haladie Throw you can infinitely blockjump by just pressing E.

 sure it consumes the ap,monster ap, etc, but you can re-pop them buff again with the right addons that you prefer. this will make you move pack to pack faster. 


3) I'm not really sure about Nova. cuz Im pretty sure they are still gated on how their pet loots it has cooldown so. but yeah possible they have the pet that loots really far so they could just leave the pack that fast. but yes its still gated by how their pet loots.

Last Edit : Dec 1, 2024, 12:43 (UTC)
# 8
On: Nov 30, 2024, 20:16 (UTC), Written by CoupDeGrace

 1) Yes, my Idea? is maybe to give everyone an option so they able to change the Skill keybind for every skill  they prefer.  so if people want to change it for their own benefit or if they think it'll be easier for them. and for the people who don't wanna change theirs they could stay with the older Skill keybind.  

2) even with infinite blockjump? if you put monster ap or human damage or popping any AP buff on Haladie Throw you can infinitely blockjump by just pressing E.

 sure it consumes the ap,monster ap, etc, but you can re-pop them buff again with the right addons that you prefer. this will make you move pack to pack faster. 


3) I'm not really sure about Nova. cuz Im pretty sure they are still gated on how their pet loots it has cooldown so. but yeah possible they have the pet that loots really far so they could just leave the pack that fast. but yes its still gated by how their pet loots.

1. They are not going to add an entire system that lets you rebind keys just because Hash has 2 abilities on the same key. People have asked for this before and PA has not added it yet. I see no reason not to change the input for Tail Cutter and Rupture. It might take a bit of getting used to at first but it'd be much healthier long term.
2. The only spot where the "infinite" blockjump would be relevant is Tungrad Ruins and there are a multitude of other classes that can move similarly fast. Awakening Maegu has a tp skill on a 4 sec cooldown, Succ Dosa can teleport with a 6 second cooldown, Awak Nova's Comet is also an almost instant gap closer. If this is an actual concern then they can simply add the wind-up animation that the blockjump has off cooldown to it while it's also used during cooldown.
3. I'm pretty sure you're thinking of Awakening Nova and when you say pets you're thinking of the pets that pick up loot, rather than the summons Succession Nova uses. The point was that Succ Nova is one of the worst pve classes in the game (especially at Tungrad) and Succ Hash is performing similar to her. If you have a vid of yourself grinding Tungrad Ruins and getting 30-35k trash in an hour I'd love to see it tho.

Last Edit : Dec 1, 2024, 20:10 (UTC)
# 9

1. I'm pretty sure some people would like to change their skill keybind aswell on their other class not just hash players. But yeah I just answered his question. lol  Thats true tho no reason to change the hotkey for those certain skills. especially for me lol. this is more likely an skill issue for others, if you're gonna ask me. and exprience issue for others.

3. nope, the actual pet your pet is gated by their cd. its how PA gate people from grinding too fast. also same on number 1. this is more likely an skill issue for others or experience issue others, if you can't farm that much.  but yes. you cannot grind way too fast in this game because how the pet loots. its gated. 

I would highly suggest to play the class longer. practice makes perfect . Build your muscle memory on the class you love.

Last Edit : Dec 1, 2024, 20:21 (UTC)
# 10
On: Dec 1, 2024, 19:51 (UTC), Written by CoupDeGrace

1. I'm pretty sure some people would like to change their skill keybind aswell on their other class not just hash players. But yeah I just answered his question. lol  Thats true tho no reason to change the hotkey for those certain skills. especially for me lol. this is more likely an skill issue for others, if you're gonna ask me. and exprience issue for others.

3. nope, the actual pet your pet is gated by their cd. its how PA gate people from grinding too fast. also same on number 1. this is more likely an skill issue for others or experience issue others, if you can't farm that much.  but yes. you cannot grind way too fast in this game because how the pet loots. its gated. 

I would highly suggest to play the class longer. practice makes perfect . Build your muscle memory on the class you love.

1. I've been playing Hash since he came out and I've been in multiple high end pvp guilds always performing well. I'm not claiming to be the best hash in the world or anything but this has nothing to do with skill. If you use tail cutter and get hit during the skill it can get accelerated and finish instantly causing you to immediately activate Rupture.
3. I don't know if this is a language barrier but you're completely misunderstanding what both I and him are saying. The point wasn't that Succession Nova grinds too fast and is only limited by pet cooldowns. It was the  opposite. Succession Nova is a TERRIBLE grinder at Tungrad Ruins and Succ Hash grinds about as fast as her. This is NOT a good thing. Again if you think this is a skill issue then please find or record a video of a Succ Hash pulling 30-36k trash at Tungrad Ruins. I would love to see it.

Also why do you write like this

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