After some encouragement in another thread, I'd like to present an idea to the devs and community.  This is in regards to possible ways to address the Karma System's abusability, which the devs have acknowledged at Calpheon Ball 2021 stating;

Below provides a broad overview / description of the system, limitations / rules of the system, an example of the workings of said system, my goals with this system, and a speculated result of the system.  It is open to critique and is 100% tentative at this point.  Hoping this can help the developers in their "operation solution" to address the Karma system being abused as it is currently.  It's long, so I hope you have time.

***Alternative solution***:  Only allow Vendettas to be sendable to Guildless players and remove the ability for guilds to be unwarrable.  My system may be overly complex and the best solution would be to focus on guildless players / unwarrable guild players since these players are given the ability to -- literally -- grief with impunity.  Guildled players, at least, have to deal with the threat of GvG dec, and that aids in keeping players from griefing others becuase those they grief have one viable recourse of action (sending dec), whereas, guildless / non-warrable, do not need to consider this threat at all as it cannot be applied to them.

If you have any suggestions to improve this system, or have your own system in mind, please let them be known.  FYI - I'd appreciate if this thread didn't devolve into toxic drivel, but do realise that polarizing topics, such as the Karma System, can bring that about.  If we could maintain a constructive outlook on this thread, that would be great.

I think this is a really well thought-out idea, thank you for making a thread for it :) The biggest criticism that I can foresee popping up here would be from the average mid-gear players that just want to find a spot and grind in peace (the same criticism that Zeroden was receiving for his diminishing returns idea). Aka - giving stronger players more tools to lock down a spot might force some players to channel swap a lot more often, even if there's a weekly cap on it. But again, to the people who rage about that concept: stronger players dunking on weaker players is fundamentally baked into the philosophy of this game. The karma system was *not* meant to combat this fact, it was only meant to discourage blind griefing. PA is clearly okay with the concept of PKing as long as it is done in moderation.

Personally, as a super average mid-gear player myself, I find the Vendetta system more appealing than forced DFS or random PKs. At least with this you'd get a big fat notification telling you someone is coming for your booty x) But unfortunately with very limited access to Vendettas I don't think it would completely eliminate/dissuade other methods of griefing either.

There's another alternative solution in this thread for a spot-claiming mechanic that's a bit more restrictive than this one, but might give more options to both high and low gs players. In the end I think any of these proposed solutions would be an improvement to the base karma system, or at the very least give players more tools to deal with the occasional toxic owPvP interaction.

His idea targets the guildless and undeccable griefers and it is - or, at least seams - a decent solution to the problem. I don't know about the amount of vendettas, though. For me, 2 will suffice for the rest of the year. But there may be times when 2 a day will be too little for others.

Second, you would probably want the channel(s) with active vendettas marked in some way (give the griefers a tool to keep track of their work) and maybe a new icon (?) next to the player's nameplate, to make them pop.

It should not work on season channels, so that players asking for pve servers to still have a safe place where they can peacefully grind on top of each other. (Besides, I saw a case where a friend was declared upon and harassed for refusing to invite a leecher for rift's echoes, on season channels).

Just like my suggestion, this one would literally make the gear difference be the deciding factor in who gets to grind where and, given the complexity botched loot balance, we'll... Let's say that it will potentially make matters worse. But, who knows, maybe that will entice PA to rebalance - properly this time - the loot pool of the zones and/or add the diminishing returns effect when overgearing a spot.

So, yeah. I think that, with the right amount of alotted vendettas and a good duration of them, one problem can be alleviated, if not completely solved. 

Maybe discouraging karmabombing will make mob-feeding less of an issue too.

At which point, it will all boil down to "Why should a 650 GS player still grind a 550 GS spot for better loot?" or, better put, "Why is a 650 GS spot less rewarding than a 450 one?" 

It's not GAMBLING it's SURPISE MECHANICS

It's not PK it's SURPISE VENDETTA

Come on now!  Just admit you want to circumvent the Karma System and PK players out of a rotation by an exploitable system, while AT THE SAME time REFUSING to play on PVP servers designed FOR THAT SPECIFIC PURPOSE.

Stop trying to plague the game with exploits, ty.

Please, stick to plaguing the thread I made and all the others you are already a regular on. If you can type nothing of value on the topic, maybe don't spew the same drivel here. 

On point. Karmambomers are circumventing the wardec system by abusing the karma system as guildless cowards. No effort is big enough to actually bring them in line with everybody else. Ktb!

@PieaceInChaos

By your proposition, you just wanna erase the karma system.

It will never happen.

Devs said so, you wrote it yourself: As for the Karma system, we have no plans to change the system in any major way. This is because Black Desert exists as one huge field. We feel that the Karma system is a "standard" where we can distinguish between "PvP" and "PK."

If they are going to change it in some regions, as you wrote again, it's something else. But not in the main idea, as you can see. Unless you can't understand what they said. Read more carefully please... It's humiliating to quote yourself back...

Downvote on your proposition since it would delete any possible sanction to pkers. You clearly want to kill freely.

If you don't want your grinding spot to be taken or don't want to be griefed, just support another idea like flagged rotation where you can defend the zone you're already on so griefers will have big disadvantages.

But any other idea related to yours is clearly to freely pk. Thanks to PA, it will never happen.

Furthermore, in your example, you didn't even mention the guildless player making his rotation:

- Player A is guildless and grinding.

- Player B (guilded) wanna come and force or grief the spot.

- Player B can make a Vendetta on player A who can't (by your rules) and this is despite anything that player A will do or say. He'll just be broke by player B, lose money, buffs and more.

What's fair for player A there?

Guildless players might not want to join any guild to avoid those kind of troubles. And you wanna circumvent the system to keep bothering them.

Your system is not there to avoid griefers, it's more there to allow griefers to take a rotation already taken.

Definitely NO. A big one.

Nothing fair in it.

@Harth:

"guildless cowards" is a judgement you give to players who make a choice and gave up the guild buffs for other advantages.

If some are griefers, many of them want to grind peacefully. Calling them "cowards" because they chose not to be in a guild is unjustified... It's part of the game though, nobody is forced to be in a guild, as nobody is forced to be guildless. This part is an individual choice and the game is open to both kinds.

Also, your suggestion of being able to track "vendetted" players through other channels would make it even more toxic - as if it was not enough already.

PA made this cooldown to switch servers to avoid tracking players who wanna play peacefully.

And for those who would receive unfair vendettas, they would see their game ruined!

This would keep going on and on...

No way this idea could come up with PA. Fortunately.

@JackBelling:

Can you please stop quoting full posts? It makes every page you write on very long for nothing...

I'm calling the people that use karmabombing as guildless players cowards. It's part of the game true. Just as mob-feeding is. Both great systems, no doubt!

No, I don't. What I want is, "the channel(s) with active vendettas marked in some way (give the griefers a tool to keep track of their work) and maybe a new icon (?) next to the player's nameplate, to make them pop." That means, to see which channels you have active vendettas on (as a recipient of those declarations), to avoid going there while they're still active.

This is the strongest counter-argument to any attempt of solving the karmabombing problem. It's less of an issue when the players are equaly geared, but a big one at all times anyway. 'Cause we can have a situation where:

- Player A is guildless and grinding.

- Player B comes, asks for dfs, the players duel and Player B loses.
- Player B proceeds to to declare a vendetta on Player A, cus he/she didn't like the outcome of the duel.

- (Assuming player A isn't Jack's ilk), Player A has no recourse on the matter and will have to look for other spot to continue his/her grind for the next 3 hours.

What then? That's an issue alright. And the Vendetta system will have no possible outcome that would be fair for both sides in this case.

What would happen if the vendettas can be issued by everyone, not just by the guilded players? Other than the karma system showing its utility, by being circumvented completely as far as spot contesting goes?

Not every guildless player is karmabomber or griefer.

And some might do it as defense, not to go and look for trouble.

Misunderstood you, my bad.

That, why not.

But I still don't agree with this system that would not solve the problem, it would just be a patch to help pkers.

And in you example, what if the player refuses the dfs? He has no obligation, as the player B has no right to make it an imposition.

If player B wants to grief after that and, in addition, put a vendetta on player A who was peacefully grinding, what is fair there for player A?

The griefer could choose not to bother anyone and look for his own spot, and not ruin the hour of the guy peacefully grinding.

Open PVP yeah, and I agree. Duel agreed by both parts are fun.

When it's forced, then comes the karma system. And there the karma system is fair.

This vendetta system would only bring more toxicity, imo.