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The Vendetta System (possible way to build upon current Karma System)
25. Jan 2023, 21:51 (UTC)
3037 68
1 2 3 4 5 ... 7
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 25. Jan 2023, 21:57 (UTC)
# 1

After some encouragement in another thread, I'd like to present an idea to the devs and community.  This is in regards to possible ways to address the Karma System's abusability, which the devs have acknowledged at Calpheon Ball 2021 stating;

As for the Karma system, we have no plans to change the system in any major way. This is because Black Desert exists as one huge field. We feel that the Karma system is a "standard" where we can distinguish between "PvP" and "PK." We will maintain a somewhat free PvP system on the field, but we want to discourage PK.

 

However, we've heard stories from certain regions where the Karma system is being abused. We are currently looking into an operational solution to improve on this issue.

https://www.sea.playblackdesert.com/en-US/News/Detail?groupContentNo=6882&countryType=en-US

Below provides a broad overview / description of the system, limitations / rules of the system, an example of the workings of said system, my goals with this system, and a speculated result of the system.  It is open to critique and is 100% tentative at this point.  Hoping this can help the developers in their "operation solution" to address the Karma system being abused as it is currently.  It's long, so I hope you have time.

Individual "Dec" System ("Vendetta System")

Description:

- This system functions very similarly to the current Guild vs Guild System, where guilds can declare war on other guilds.

- The main difference is that it is between two indivudal players as opposed to entire guilds.

- Individual Players would be able to "dec" (mark another player with a "Vendetta" against them) other individual players, but with imposed limitations to prevent abusing the system to recklessly PK.

Limitations:

- Vendettas cannot be sent to multiple players are one time.  Players are allowed one active sent-Vendetta at a time.

- Players may have multiple received-Vendettas applied to them at one time.

- However, all active Vendettas; sent and received, are automatically cancelled via channel swap.

- If either player swaps to a different channel, all active Vendettas are cancelled for all parties involved regarding said Vendetta.

- Only players who are in guilds are allowed to send Vendettas, but all players (guilded or guildless) are able to receive Vendettas.

- Sending Vendettas are treated as a privilege, a limited resource, and to be used in emergency-type situations, or situations where there is no other viable recourse.

- Players are alotted one or two Vendettas they can send per week, reset after every maintenance.  This is to encourage wise-use and not to waste a Vendetta for toxic purposes.

- Once sent, Vendettas can be manually cancelled by the sender via the Vendetta menu.  If cancelled before the Vendetta is engaged (after 5 - 10 minutes), the allotment used is reset and the Vendetta does not go through.  Player must wait 60 minutes before sending another Vendetta.

- A Vendetta is cancelled and overridden by Guild Declaration of War of either party, causing the sender to lose one Vendetta allotment (GvG > Vendetta).

- Once a Vendetta is sent, both players shall have the channel the Vendetta was issued on as "Marked".  A "Marked" channel will retain the Vendetta status for an amount of time (tentative:  I originally thought 24 hours was reasonable, but maybe a shorter amount of time is better, such as 180 minutes).

- A Marked channel's purpose is to prevent players from swapping channels to end the Vendetta, but swapping right back to continue griefing the same player.

Workings (via example):

- Player A is grinding a rotation.  Guildless Player B enters and starts killing Elites in the rotation Player A is occupying.  Player A tries diplomacy, but Guildless Player B ignores Player A and continues farming mobs that Player A is trying to farm.

- Player A sends a Vendetta which takes effect after 5 - 10 minutes.  Player B is notified that a Vendetta is sent to them, from who, and with a banner notification.

- The two players are able to fight it out until one player gives up and leaves.

- Guilded Player A is grinding a rotation.  Guilded Player B sees them and wants to overtake the spot through force.

- Player B sends a Vendetta to Player A and the two engage in PvP.

- Guilded Player A cannot win, so is met with two primary options:  1) Concede to defeat and leave, 2) Continue fighting, enlisting help from their guild.  Player A chooses to continue fighting with aid from their guild.

- A Guild dec is sent and a GvG ensues, continuing until one side leaves first or until a truce is found.

- Player A seeks to use this system recklessly as a means to PK others as they wish.

- Player A sees Player B, who is a Shai, and wants to pick on them.

- Player A sends a Vendetta to Player B to PK them with no Karma loss.

- Player B swaps channels once the Vendetta is issued.

- The Vendetta is automatically cancelled for both parties upon channel swap.

- Player A loses one count of sendable Vendetta allotment allowed that week, essentially, wasting this resource.

- Guilded Player A is grinding, minding their own business.  They receive a Vendetta from Player B out of nowhere.

- Player A counters this by sending a Guild Dec.

- The Vendetta is cancelled, Player B loses a vendetta allotment, and now their guilds are involved.

- From here, guild diplomacy can take place, or a Guild War.

Goals with this system:

The Vendetta System's aim is to maintain BDO's core gameplay and main content.  This core gameplay and main content being stated by the developers as a (quote) "huge open field" and "adventurers fighting monsters alongside others" (https://grumpygreen.cricket/marnis-realm/).  While maintaining BDO's core gameplay and main content, the Vendetta System hopes to add an additional layer of protection for players, along with the Karma System (current Karma System is unchanged), by allowing players a form of reasonable retribution in the event they encounter someone with whom there is conflict, primarily, guildless players.  We currently have GvG Wars, the Vendetta System functions similarly to this in both ideology and function, exept, it is between individual players, not entire guilds. 

This, basically, gives players a choice when met by a griefer, a choice that doesn't result in them losing something when met by a griefer in this way.  Currently, all choices lead to losing something when griefed by a guildless / non-warrable player.  This system will give at least one resonable recourse players can take against guildless players who seek to grief.  The end goals are:

1) Viable recourse of action against guildless griefers.

2) Maintaining BDO's core and main gameplay.

3) Minimizing the amount of griefing in BDO.

4) Maintaining the current level of PK discouragement.

5) Not changing the Karma System in a major way.  Coming up with an Operation Solution to address the issue.

Tansie explained the lack of choices / recourse when met by a griefer perfectly in their article on BD Foundry, found here: https://www.blackdesertfoundry.com/karma-bombing-broken-mechanics-make-griefing-the-best-option/

Zeroden also made a YouTube video about the flaws in the Karma System along with his proposal; you can find his forum thread here: https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Forum/ForumTopic/Detail?_topicNo=30489&_categoryNo=7&_searchType=0&_sortType=6&_orderType=False&_pageNo=1&_pageSize=25&_searchDay=0&_forumListType=0

I suggest everyone invested in BDO to read Tansie's article and watch Zeroden's video as they both explore ways the Karma System can be abused and explore possible ways it can be addressed.  The Vendetta System is simply another possible solution to this ongoing problem.

Result:

This will eliminate the ability for Guildless Players to grief others who are grinding with impunity, as they can do currently.  This will also eliminate the situation of an entire guild being dec'd on behalf of the bad actions of one player of said guild, if the Vendetta is sent to non-guildless player.  With this system, since we would potentially have a viable recourse against guildless / non-warrable griefers, mob-feeding can be removed.  If players are killed by mobs during a PvP engagement, said death will be considered a PvP death, not PvE.

The current Karma System is unchanged.  PK is still heavily discouraged.

***Alternative solution***:  Only allow Vendettas to be sendable to Guildless players and remove the ability for guilds to be unwarrable.  My system may be overly complex and the best solution would be to focus on guildless players / unwarrable guild players since these players are given the ability to -- literally -- grief with impunity.  Guildled players, at least, have to deal with the threat of GvG dec, and that aids in keeping players from griefing others becuase those they grief have one viable recourse of action (sending dec), whereas, guildless / non-warrable, do not need to consider this threat at all as it cannot be applied to them.

If you have any suggestions to improve this system, or have your own system in mind, please let them be known.  FYI - I'd appreciate if this thread didn't devolve into toxic drivel, but do realise that polarizing topics, such as the Karma System, can bring that about.  If we could maintain a constructive outlook on this thread, that would be great.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 03:59 (UTC)
# 2

I think this is a really well thought-out idea, thank you for making a thread for it :) The biggest criticism that I can foresee popping up here would be from the average mid-gear players that just want to find a spot and grind in peace (the same criticism that Zeroden was receiving for his diminishing returns idea). Aka - giving stronger players more tools to lock down a spot might force some players to channel swap a lot more often, even if there's a weekly cap on it. But again, to the people who rage about that concept: stronger players dunking on weaker players is fundamentally baked into the philosophy of this game. The karma system was *not* meant to combat this fact, it was only meant to discourage blind griefing. PA is clearly okay with the concept of PKing as long as it is done in moderation.

 

Personally, as a super average mid-gear player myself, I find the Vendetta system more appealing than forced DFS or random PKs. At least with this you'd get a big fat notification telling you someone is coming for your booty x) But unfortunately with very limited access to Vendettas I don't think it would completely eliminate/dissuade other methods of griefing either.

 

There's another alternative solution in this thread for a spot-claiming mechanic that's a bit more restrictive than this one, but might give more options to both high and low gs players. In the end I think any of these proposed solutions would be an improvement to the base karma system, or at the very least give players more tools to deal with the occasional toxic owPvP interaction.

9 143
Lv Privat
Novinae
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 06:04 (UTC)
# 3

His idea targets the guildless and undeccable griefers and it is - or, at least seams - a decent solution to the problem. I don't know about the amount of vendettas, though. For me, 2 will suffice for the rest of the year. But there may be times when 2 a day will be too little for others.

Second, you would probably want the channel(s) with active vendettas marked in some way (give the griefers a tool to keep track of their work) and maybe a new icon (?) next to the player's nameplate, to make them pop.

It should not work on season channels, so that players asking for pve servers to still have a safe place where they can peacefully grind on top of each other. (Besides, I saw a case where a friend was declared upon and harassed for refusing to invite a leecher for rift's echoes, on season channels).

Just like my suggestion, this one would literally make the gear difference be the deciding factor in who gets to grind where and, given the complexity botched loot balance, we'll... Let's say that it will potentially make matters worse. But, who knows, maybe that will entice PA to rebalance - properly this time - the loot pool of the zones and/or add the diminishing returns effect when overgearing a spot.

So, yeah. I think that, with the right amount of alotted vendettas and a good duration of them, one problem can be alleviated, if not completely solved. 

Maybe discouraging karmabombing will make mob-feeding less of an issue too.

At which point, it will all boil down to "Why should a 650 GS player still grind a 550 GS spot for better loot?" or, better put, "Why is a 650 GS spot less rewarding than a 450 one?" 

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 07:30 (UTC)
# 4
On: Jan 25, 2023, 21:51 (UTC), Written by PeaceInChaos

After some encouragement in another thread, I'd like to present an idea to the devs and community.  This is in regards to possible ways to address the Karma System's abusability, which the devs have acknowledged at Calpheon Ball 2021 stating;

As for the Karma system, we have no plans to change the system in any major way. This is because Black Desert exists as one huge field. We feel that the Karma system is a "standard" where we can distinguish between "PvP" and "PK." We will maintain a somewhat free PvP system on the field, but we want to discourage PK.

 

However, we've heard stories from certain regions where the Karma system is being abused. We are currently looking into an operational solution to improve on this issue.

https://www.sea.playblackdesert.com/en-US/News/Detail?groupContentNo=6882&countryType=en-US

Below provides a broad overview / description of the system, limitations / rules of the system, an example of the workings of said system, my goals with this system, and a speculated result of the system.  It is open to critique and is 100% tentative at this point.  Hoping this can help the developers in their "operation solution" to address the Karma system being abused as it is currently.  It's long, so I hope you have time.

Individual "Dec" System ("Vendetta System")

Description:

- This system functions very similarly to the current Guild vs Guild System, where guilds can declare war on other guilds.

- The main difference is that it is between two indivudal players as opposed to entire guilds.

- Individual Players would be able to "dec" (mark another player with a "Vendetta" against them) other individual players, but with imposed limitations to prevent abusing the system to recklessly PK.

Limitations:

- Vendettas cannot be sent to multiple players are one time.  Players are allowed one active sent-Vendetta at a time.

- Players may have multiple received-Vendettas applied to them at one time.

- However, all active Vendettas; sent and received, are automatically cancelled via channel swap.

- If either player swaps to a different channel, all active Vendettas are cancelled for all parties involved regarding said Vendetta.

- Only players who are in guilds are allowed to send Vendettas, but all players (guilded or guildless) are able to receive Vendettas.

- Sending Vendettas are treated as a privilege, a limited resource, and to be used in emergency-type situations, or situations where there is no other viable recourse.

- Players are alotted one or two Vendettas they can send per week, reset after every maintenance.  This is to encourage wise-use and not to waste a Vendetta for toxic purposes.

- Once sent, Vendettas can be manually cancelled by the sender via the Vendetta menu.  If cancelled before the Vendetta is engaged (after 5 - 10 minutes), the allotment used is reset and the Vendetta does not go through.  Player must wait 60 minutes before sending another Vendetta.

- A Vendetta is cancelled and overridden by Guild Declaration of War of either party, causing the sender to lose one Vendetta allotment (GvG > Vendetta).

- Once a Vendetta is sent, both players shall have the channel the Vendetta was issued on as "Marked".  A "Marked" channel will retain the Vendetta status for an amount of time (tentative:  I originally thought 24 hours was reasonable, but maybe a shorter amount of time is better, such as 180 minutes).

- A Marked channel's purpose is to prevent players from swapping channels to end the Vendetta, but swapping right back to continue griefing the same player.

Workings (via example):

- Player A is grinding a rotation.  Guildless Player B enters and starts killing Elites in the rotation Player A is occupying.  Player A tries diplomacy, but Guildless Player B ignores Player A and continues farming mobs that Player A is trying to farm.

- Player A sends a Vendetta which takes effect after 5 - 10 minutes.  Player B is notified that a Vendetta is sent to them, from who, and with a banner notification.

- The two players are able to fight it out until one player gives up and leaves.

- Guilded Player A is grinding a rotation.  Guilded Player B sees them and wants to overtake the spot through force.

- Player B sends a Vendetta to Player A and the two engage in PvP.

- Guilded Player A cannot win, so is met with two primary options:  1) Concede to defeat and leave, 2) Continue fighting, enlisting help from their guild.  Player A chooses to continue fighting with aid from their guild.

- A Guild dec is sent and a GvG ensues, continuing until one side leaves first or until a truce is found.

- Player A seeks to use this system recklessly as a means to PK others as they wish.

- Player A sees Player B, who is a Shai, and wants to pick on them.

- Player A sends a Vendetta to Player B to PK them with no Karma loss.

- Player B swaps channels once the Vendetta is issued.

- The Vendetta is automatically cancelled for both parties upon channel swap.

- Player A loses one count of sendable Vendetta allotment allowed that week, essentially, wasting this resource.

- Guilded Player A is grinding, minding their own business.  They receive a Vendetta from Player B out of nowhere.

- Player A counters this by sending a Guild Dec.

- The Vendetta is cancelled, Player B loses a vendetta allotment, and now their guilds are involved.

- From here, guild diplomacy can take place, or a Guild War.

Goals with this system:

The Vendetta System's aim is to maintain BDO's core gameplay and main content.  This core gameplay and main content being stated by the developers as a (quote) "huge open field" and "adventurers fighting monsters alongside others" (https://grumpygreen.cricket/marnis-realm/).  While maintaining BDO's core gameplay and main content, the Vendetta System hopes to add an additional layer of protection for players, along with the Karma System (current Karma System is unchanged), by allowing players a form of reasonable retribution in the event they encounter someone with whom there is conflict, primarily, guildless players.  We currently have GvG Wars, the Vendetta System functions similarly to this in both ideology and function, exept, it is between individual players, not entire guilds. 

This, basically, gives players a choice when met by a griefer, a choice that doesn't result in them losing something when met by a griefer in this way.  Currently, all choices lead to losing something when griefed by a guildless / non-warrable player.  This system will give at least one resonable recourse players can take against guildless players who seek to grief.  The end goals are:

1) Viable recourse of action against guildless griefers.

2) Maintaining BDO's core and main gameplay.

3) Minimizing the amount of griefing in BDO.

4) Maintaining the current level of PK discouragement.

5) Not changing the Karma System in a major way.  Coming up with an Operation Solution to address the issue.

Tansie explained the lack of choices / recourse when met by a griefer perfectly in their article on BD Foundry, found here: https://www.blackdesertfoundry.com/karma-bombing-broken-mechanics-make-griefing-the-best-option/

Zeroden also made a YouTube video about the flaws in the Karma System along with his proposal; you can find his forum thread here: https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Forum/ForumTopic/Detail?_topicNo=30489&_categoryNo=7&_searchType=0&_sortType=6&_orderType=False&_pageNo=1&_pageSize=25&_searchDay=0&_forumListType=0

I suggest everyone invested in BDO to read Tansie's article and watch Zeroden's video as they both explore ways the Karma System can be abused and explore possible ways it can be addressed.  The Vendetta System is simply another possible solution to this ongoing problem.

Result:

This will eliminate the ability for Guildless Players to grief others who are grinding with impunity, as they can do currently.  This will also eliminate the situation of an entire guild being dec'd on behalf of the bad actions of one player of said guild, if the Vendetta is sent to non-guildless player.  With this system, since we would potentially have a viable recourse against guildless / non-warrable griefers, mob-feeding can be removed.  If players are killed by mobs during a PvP engagement, said death will be considered a PvP death, not PvE.

The current Karma System is unchanged.  PK is still heavily discouraged.

***Alternative solution***:  Only allow Vendettas to be sendable to Guildless players and remove the ability for guilds to be unwarrable.  My system may be overly complex and the best solution would be to focus on guildless players / unwarrable guild players since these players are given the ability to -- literally -- grief with impunity.  Guildled players, at least, have to deal with the threat of GvG dec, and that aids in keeping players from griefing others becuase those they grief have one viable recourse of action (sending dec), whereas, guildless / non-warrable, do not need to consider this threat at all as it cannot be applied to them.

If you have any suggestions to improve this system, or have your own system in mind, please let them be known.  FYI - I'd appreciate if this thread didn't devolve into toxic drivel, but do realise that polarizing topics, such as the Karma System, can bring that about.  If we could maintain a constructive outlook on this thread, that would be great.

It's not GAMBLING it's SURPISE MECHANICS

It's not PK it's SURPISE VENDETTA

Come on now!  Just admit you want to circumvent the Karma System and PK players out of a rotation by an exploitable system, while AT THE SAME time REFUSING to play on PVP servers designed FOR THAT SPECIFIC PURPOSE.

Stop trying to plague the game with exploits, ty.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 07:52 (UTC)
# 5
On: Jan 26, 2023, 07:30 (UTC), Written by JackBelling

<insert karmabomber whining here>

Please, stick to plaguing the thread I made and all the others you are already a regular on. If you can type nothing of value on the topic, maybe don't spew the same drivel here. 

On point. Karmambomers are circumventing the wardec system by abusing the karma system as guildless cowards. No effort is big enough to actually bring them in line with everybody else. Ktb!

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 08:41 (UTC)
# 6

@PieaceInChaos

By your proposition, you just wanna erase the karma system.

It will never happen.

Devs said so, you wrote it yourself: As for the Karma system, we have no plans to change the system in any major way. This is because Black Desert exists as one huge field. We feel that the Karma system is a "standard" where we can distinguish between "PvP" and "PK."

If they are going to change it in some regions, as you wrote again, it's something else. But not in the main idea, as you can see. Unless you can't understand what they said. Read more carefully please... It's humiliating to quote yourself back...

Downvote on your proposition since it would delete any possible sanction to pkers. You clearly want to kill freely.

If you don't want your grinding spot to be taken or don't want to be griefed, just support another idea like flagged rotation where you can defend the zone you're already on so griefers will have big disadvantages.

But any other idea related to yours is clearly to freely pk. Thanks to PA, it will never happen.

Furthermore, in your example, you didn't even mention the guildless player making his rotation:

- Player A is guildless and grinding.

- Player B (guilded) wanna come and force or grief the spot.

- Player B can make a Vendetta on player A who can't (by your rules) and this is despite anything that player A will do or say. He'll just be broke by player B, lose money, buffs and more.

What's fair for player A there?

Guildless players might not want to join any guild to avoid those kind of troubles. And you wanna circumvent the system to keep bothering them.

Your system is not there to avoid griefers, it's more there to allow griefers to take a rotation already taken.

Definitely NO. A big one.

Nothing fair in it.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 09:01 (UTC)
# 7

@Harth:

"guildless cowards" is a judgement you give to players who make a choice and gave up the guild buffs for other advantages.

If some are griefers, many of them want to grind peacefully. Calling them "cowards" because they chose not to be in a guild is unjustified... It's part of the game though, nobody is forced to be in a guild, as nobody is forced to be guildless. This part is an individual choice and the game is open to both kinds.

Also, your suggestion of being able to track "vendetted" players through other channels would make it even more toxic - as if it was not enough already.

PA made this cooldown to switch servers to avoid tracking players who wanna play peacefully.

And for those who would receive unfair vendettas, they would see their game ruined!

This would keep going on and on...

No way this idea could come up with PA. Fortunately.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 08:40 (UTC)
# 8

@JackBelling:

Can you please stop quoting full posts? It makes every page you write on very long for nothing...

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 09:12 (UTC)
# 9
On: Jan 26, 2023, 08:31 (UTC), Written by PriseElectrique

@Harth:

"guildless cowards" is a judgement you give to players who make a choice and gave up the guild buffs for other advantages.

If some are griefers, many of them want to grind peacefully. Calling them "cowards" because they chose not to be in a guild is a free insult... It's part of the game though, nobody is forced to be in a guild, as nobody is forced to be guildless. This part is an individual choice and the game is open to both kinds.

I'm calling the people that use karmabombing as guildless players cowards. It's part of the game true. Just as mob-feeding is. Both great systems, no doubt!

On: Jan 26, 2023, 08:31 (UTC), Written by PriseElectrique

@Harth:

Also, your suggestion of being able to track "vendetted" players through other channels would make it even more toxic - as if it was not enough already.

No, I don't. What I want is, "the channel(s) with active vendettas marked in some way (give the griefers a tool to keep track of their work) and maybe a new icon (?) next to the player's nameplate, to make them pop." That means, to see which channels you have active vendettas on (as a recipient of those declarations), to avoid going there while they're still active.

On: Jan 26, 2023, 08:22 (UTC), Written by PriseElectrique

Furthermore, in your example, you didn't even mention the guildless player making his rotation:

- Player A is guildless and grinding.

- Player B (guilded) wanna come and force or grief the spot.

- Player B can make a Vendetta on player A who can't (by your rules) and this is despite anything that player A will do or say. He'll just be broke by player B, lose money, buffs and more.

What's fair for player A there?

This is the strongest counter-argument to any attempt of solving the karmabombing problem. It's less of an issue when the players are equaly geared, but a big one at all times anyway. 'Cause we can have a situation where:

- Player A is guildless and grinding.

- Player B comes, asks for dfs, the players duel and Player B loses.
- Player B proceeds to to declare a vendetta on Player A, cus he/she didn't like the outcome of the duel.

- (Assuming player A isn't Jack's ilk), Player A has no recourse on the matter and will have to look for other spot to continue his/her grind for the next 3 hours.

What then? That's an issue alright. And the Vendetta system will have no possible outcome that would be fair for both sides in this case.

What would happen if the vendettas can be issued by everyone, not just by the guilded players? Other than the karma system showing its utility, by being circumvented completely as far as spot contesting goes?

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 26. Jan 2023, 09:30 (UTC)
# 10
On: Jan 26, 2023, 09:12 (UTC), Written by Harth

I'm calling the people that use karmabombing as guildless players cowards. It's part of the game true. Just as mob-feeding is. Both great systems, no doubt!

Not every guildless player is karmabomber or griefer.

And some might do it as defense, not to go and look for trouble.

On: Jan 26, 2023, 09:12 (UTC), Written by Harth

No, I don't. What I want is, "the channel(s) with active vendettas marked in some way (give the griefers a tool to keep track of their work) and maybe a new icon (?) next to the player's nameplate, to make them pop." That means, to see which channels you have active vendettas on (as a recipient of those declarations), to avoid going there while they're still active.

Misunderstood you, my bad.

That, why not.

But I still don't agree with this system that would not solve the problem, it would just be a patch to help pkers.

And in you example, what if the player refuses the dfs? He has no obligation, as the player B has no right to make it an imposition.

If player B wants to grief after that and, in addition, put a vendetta on player A who was peacefully grinding, what is fair there for player A?

The griefer could choose not to bother anyone and look for his own spot, and not ruin the hour of the guy peacefully grinding.

Open PVP yeah, and I agree. Duel agreed by both parts are fun.

When it's forced, then comes the karma system. And there the karma system is fair.

This vendetta system would only bring more toxicity, imo.

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