I've never said "shame for them, they MIGHT have problems".  Talk about "playing with words" -- when I never said such a thing.  I've had quite a few people tell me that this idea has merit.  Desymoo, Harth, Sadalsuud, on this thread alone.  So, you bring up arguments and I bring up counter arguments, and the best you can do is say "stay focused on the topic" and twist what's being said to you, and now want to run away?  Can't even have a honest conversation, and as I thought, this topic went upside down with disingenuous arguments.

Jack Belling has been on this forum under, at least, 5 different accounts, dating back from Kakao.  Each account banned and it's only a matter of time before this one of his gets banned, if it isn't already.  I'm going to go over each of your counter arguments even though you've run away from the topic you so vehemently argued against (in quite a disingenuous manner, might I add).

- By saying "shame for them, they MIGHT have problems" (they run the risk of this specific scenario happening.  To me, it's a reasonable situation...), it's not fine. You even find that "reasonable" based on your own judgement!

First of all, I've NEVER said "shame on them, they might have problems".  I asked you a specific question relating to this.  You've probably run away, but will ask it any way:

What's WORSE, this niche scenario you bring up, or the literal ability for guildless players to grief with impunity?

The answer to that should reflect a lot about you and your stance about this issue, that the devs acknowledged themselves (quote is below).

- No "imposing" that players should be in guilds.  "Encouraged" is a better word.

With this situation, no, "Encouraged" is not the adapted word there. They would suffer a negative situation that you wanna create for them.

Just leave them alone...

Does guild buffs "impose" that players be in guilds?  They don't.  It "encourages".  It's not necessary to play the game, but adds value in the form of raw stats.  Access to sending Vendettas is the same way -- players can still be guildless if they want, they just can't send Vendettas.  NO ONE is required to send these -- but when in the face of a guildless person stealing mobs away from people minding their own business -- THIS is the solution.  It, 1) Keeps BDO's main content in tact (dev quote "the main content of Black Desert, that is, fighting monsters in the open world alongside other Adventurers." https://grumpygreen.cricket/marnis-realm/).  2)  Allows a choice for players who encounter a guildless player griefing their grind session, that is VERY SIMILAR to what we currently have in the GVG system.  3)  Does not change the Karma System in any major way, like the devs stated when proposing fixing the flaws in the Karma System.  Keep in mind what the devs said.  It doesn't seem like you are and I'm trying my best to be honest here.

I leave people alone.  I bother no one on normal channel.  If the spot I want is taken, I swap or ask how long they'll be.  Stop bringing up Arsha, because the problem ISN'T ON ARSHA. 

There is a problem when I am grinding, minding my own business on normal channelss, and a guildless person starts stealing mobs in the rotation I am occupying.  There is literally NOTHING I can do without losing something -- be it the spot, silver, rare drop chance, or Karma.  MANY players agree this is a problem and there's worse instances.  How about when a guildless player, in full DP meme gear grabs you out of nowhere while you're grinding Gyfin Underground and feeds you to mobs?  This happened to a guildie of mine back in the day.

You've offered no solution to this problem.  You mentioned a flag system that is literally just like Marni's Realm.  A temporary solution that doesn't address the issue in any meaningful way (problem will still exist after the 1 hour is up in your proposal).  My system does not diminish Karma loss, like other suggestions said.  Instead, my suggestion makes EVERY player held acocuntable for their actions, just like guilded players are with the possibility of GVG.

- While they can be Vendetta'ed, they simply swap channels...

That's the thing: they can still be abused vendetted. Why would they "have to" swap channels? Your proposition bothers them and definitely brings nothing positive.

They'd swap to end the Vendetta and the sender loses this limited resource.  That's the trade-off.  They lose the spot, or they can try fighting.  HOWEVER, aside from the limited access to Vendettas and way to end it, how is this different from a guild dec?  I see the problem here -- you are thinking about things on a case by case basis and I'm thinking of things in the scope of the entire game.  Most players are in guilds and guild membership is encouraged on multiple levels as it is.  The issue you bring up is very, very niche in this sense.  I think the Vendetta System would be better for the entire game, as a whole.  I ask this question again:

What's WORSE?  Your niche situation of a guildless player being kicked out of spots more easily, or the ability for guildless players to grief with impunity?

Good points, Sadal. 

1) BDO is an Open World PvX sandbox MMORPG.  In this sense, Private Instances make zero sense.  It's not a PvP game.  It's not a PvE game.  It's so much more.  No other relevant MMO is like BDO and I just want it to be as good as it can be -- for everyone's enjoyment.  Well, not for griefers enjoyment, obviously!  Lol.  Kinda makes me wonder why anyone would be opposed to take power away from guildless griefers.  Maybe they're griefers themselves???  Who knows.

2) Normal channels are REGULATED PVP channels.  This means, PvP with rules.  Players, primarily guildless in my experience, abuse the rules to grief others.  And there, very, very literally, is NOTHING in place to stop it.  That's what needs to be addressed, IMO.  Zeroden agrees, he's a well-known community member and BDO contributor.  Tansie as well.  Tansie has been providing the community with guides, patch notes, Global Lab patch notes, and articles about BDO for many years.  Tansie even chimed in on a thread talking about this issue speaking about how they've, pretty much, lost hope that the problem will be fixed.  Well, I'm not giving up until a good and positive solution - for the game as a whoile - is in place.

... As a reminder, you're writing this on the forums of the game you're spitting on, a game published for more than 7 years now, and still active to this day...

So no, there's nothing objective in your answer there. You're simply deeply in disagreement with some core ideas of the game. 

It would be really nice if everyone in the game was considerate and polite but thats simply not possible. Eventually no matter how many alternative rotations or other places to grind or marni realm or anything like that two players will find themselves looking at the same rotation of mobs and be unwilling to simply walk away. When that happens there should be some sort of reasonable way for the two of them to fight over they mobs they both want without having to resort to being as objectively horrible to eachother as possible.

if there was only 1 server, and it was pure pve with no ability to flag at all, players would still be fighting over the rotations just by poaching mobs from eachother instead of killing eachother. I guess I can't really relate to the viewpoint that gimping someone's progress by making their grindspot worth 70% less money is somehow more noble than killing their character and they respawn instantly and it costs them literally nothing

Very true.  It's weird to me how some people will valiantly defend people getting PK'd, but on the other hand, completely ignore or dismiss the actual issue being brought up, and that is Karma System abuse.

That being said, I do have some concerns about this personal dec system. If i were a player with bad intentions, and I wanted to go to lengths to use the system to harass another player. what steps are there in place to prevent me from walking up to someone else grinding at centaurs fresh off season, issueing a vendetta, and then killing that player far below me in gear until they have to give up their spot.

I suppose my critique is if vendettas are unlimited and unrestricted it just adds oone extra step before someone can just chain pk players far beneath them in power. If Vendettas are limited then it osnt much of a soloutioon but rather another layer of duct tape wrapped around the issue, as the most used tactic will swap to ways to make the person you want to annoy burn through their vendettas and then you can continue to harass them with impunity.

Those would be the biggest limiters to this proposal, indeed.  I can see that being a potential issue.  Like, with Vendettas being limited, a guildless player -- if pushed out, can contact friends and have them harrass the person who kicked them out by burning through their Vendetta alotment, then we're back to where we are now currently, back to square one.  However, I would argue, that -- with the limit placed on Vendetta alotments, the Vendetta System, as a whole, is a better solution than allowing guildless griefers the ability to harass with impunity, like they are able to now.  Basically, I am saying; The current situation of guildless players being able to grief with impunity, is greater than the possibility of players 'dec'ing' lowbies to push players out.

If a player is issued a Vendetta to get pushed out by a better PvP'er, there are a few things in place that lend favor to the person being pushed out:

1) Sender loses a Vendetta alotment.  Therefore, they are unable to send a Vendetta may they be rotation griefed by a guildless player.

2) Player being pushed out does not lose EXP, and mob-feeding issue would not be a thing with this system, as PvE deaths during PvP engagements are eliminated.

3) Player being sent a Vendetta has the opportunity to fight for the spot by sending a guild dec.  If they are guildless, well, then yes, they are stuck with swapping channels.

These may or may not be satisfactory to you or others, but I feel that forcing guildless players to swap channels when met with this situation isn't as bad as guilded or guildless players being rotation griefed by guildless / no-warrable players.  If a player is guilded, they send a GvG dec -- the SAME thing they'd do in today's game when met with this same situation.  However, if the Vendetta System would actually encourage more forceful actions when it comes to grind spot conflict, then it's probably back to the drawing board.  Probably.  I'd hate a more hostile game environment, but I also am quite passionate about fixing the problems / abuse the current Karma System allows.

I just don't get why guildless players are, LITEARLLY, given the freedom and allowance to grief with impunity -- with ZERO REPERCUSSION.  IDK why people cannot see this issue, they must not play the game in my eyes, if one cannot see how Karma System Abuse works.  I've given college-paper-worthy descriptions of it, provided website links with entire articles about the issues, provided a link to Zeroden's explanation that is thorough and even linked a damn YouTube video of some dude Karmabombing in real time.  And yet, it seems some people STILL don't see what's wrong?  Like, how blind are some people?  Not you, per se, but some people.  Like, really???!!!  /vent

I appreciate you bringing up this point.  I ask you then:

What do you think would be a more viable solution to the issue of current Karma System abuse?  A solution that does not "compromise the main content" of BDO, does not "change that Karma System in any major way" (quotations here are dev quotes), and adds an "operational solution" to the current issues plaguing Karma System Abuse?

to lose karma you must flag up, here is a neat common sense solution DONT FLAG AND YOU WONT LOSE KARMA!

if your attacked by a player who flags and you dont and you HAPPEN to KILL the FLAGGED player you wont lose KARMA!

It shouldnt be so unbelievably complicated for people to understand, its not rocket science an actual rodent could figure it out

I think Karma losses should be tied to the guild you are a part of. Killing someone repeatedly should cause you to lose karma assosciated with that guild, and once you lose enough karma any member of that guild should be able to treast you as a red player.

lets say I'm pking at catfish like an idiot. im killing peoples alts and i end up going red with Lifeguild and Siegeguild.

I could find a way to grind my karma back with these two guilds. (maybe by being assigned guild missions by one of their officers.)

Alternatively my guild could choose to simply go to war with these guilds wich opens up everyone for non red pvp interactiosn and wipes karma for the guild.

What about poor lifeguild though? Theyre a pve lifeskilling guild that dont want to go to war and none of their members have the gear or interest in hunting me as a red player? They could contract mercenary guilds or mercenary players to pk me on their behalf.

just remove karma from the game, turn 5 channels into arsha based channels totalling 6
make the current season servers pve only servers(once season ends)(can still war dec on season/pve but no force flag)
make every other server karma system. maybe add more arsha channels depending on feedback/traffic on those servers
that way if you cry/complain about pvp on the pvp channels your dumb, if you complain you cant pvp on the pve servers your dumb
if you cry about karma on the karma channels your dumb

no matter what happens for open world pvp someone will always complain even after everything handed to them