#Musa
Revert Prime:Blooming, Prime:Crust Crusher Changes - Global Labs Patch 02/03/23
06. Feb 2023, 05:15 (UTC)
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Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
06. Feb 2023, 05:28 (UTC)
# 1
I would like to keep this topic specific to the changes made to Prime: Blooming and Prime: Crust Crusher on Global Labs Patch from 02/03/22.
I am speaking for myself, but I am also including the general popular opinion of the tenured users of the Musa Community Discord.
For any other discussion regarding PvP on Succession Musa, please refer to this post by respected Succession Musa player Okazaki:
There were some truly amazing and greatly appreciated changes made in this patch and I won't touch on those nor the similar buffs given to Maehwa. If other users want to discuss their oninions on those changes, I'd ask that you make another topic in this forum to do so.
The changes are as follows (English translation provided by user ACN in the Musa Community Discord):
"'Succession Musa is a class that can deal high instant damage with fast-linking skills. In particular, if you hit the opponent with a status effect and combo them, you can quickly overwhelm the opponent. It is possible to quickly hit and run, and it has the advantage of being able to momentarily put pressure on the opponent with high damage, but it was difficult to use that advantage if there were other opponents who were trying to keep Musa in check. Therefore, rather than applying damage while maintaining protection with Prime: Crust Crusher, protection was added to Prime: Blooming to guard the opponent's attack when necessary and improved the form to apply pressure through the damage of Blooming.'
Prime: Crust Crusher
● Prime: Crust Crusher has been changed as follows.
ㅇ Skill has been improved to activate more quickly.
ㅇ Forward Guard and Down Smash have been removed, and Knockdown has been changed to apply in PvP as well.
- Forward Guard has been moved to Prime: Blooming.
ㅇ Critical Hit Rate has been changed to +100%.
ㅇ PvP Damage reduction changed from -44.1% to -49.1%.
Prime: Blooming
● Forward Guard added to Prime: Blooming, Stun on extra attack has been changed to apply to monsters only."
First off let me just make this clear: Prime:Crust Crusher is not a good skill and has not seen serious use a skill since the reworks. We didn't use this ability when it was a protected knockdown and we won't use it as an unprotected knockdown. We are not happy to trade anything for buffs to this skill barring a major rework or speed increase to the animation.
As you can see from the flavor text, these changes have been applied in order to protect Succession Musa users in combat encounters involving multiple enemies. This is a known weakness of Succession Musa, and we appreciate the attention of the developers. This change, however, will run counter to that goal as it actually eliminates one of our group pvp strengths - that is, the multi-hit Stun from mid range via Prime: Blooming.
The last time Succession Musa was looked at by PA, they added a very powerful series of flows to Prime: Blooming which made the skill powerful in PvP encoutners. If the user is fast enough, they can cancel the attack animation of Prime:Blooming by flowing into Prime:Gale(3), Prime:Backstep Slash, or Prime:Rising Storm. These flows allow the Musa user to Prime:Blooming->Prime:(Gale3/RS/BSS) to "cover" the unprotected status of Prime:Blooming. There is a very small gap between the skills (<100ms) where the musa can be punished, which makes this tactic difficult and risky to use when under pressure. Some users report their ability to cancel this ability so quickly that they never feel the need to play around the gap, while others (myself included) don't dare to take the risk.
In this same patch, a change was applied to Prime:Divider (unprotected float/-DP debuff) to disable a similar "fast cancel" flow wherein users could quickly use gale to cancel prime:divider and execute a psuedo-protected float against the target. This cancel and the blooming cancel function similarly and most users saw this change as a trade of one tool for another.
Since this change went through, a majority of Succession Musa users report that Prime:Blooming is their most used and most versatile "catch" CC. The skill applies a wide conal stun with multiple hits, which can punish enemy gaps. In environments like Arena of Solare, this skill allows Succession Musa users to "fish" for CC in chaotic environments where they cannot directly engage, and then use thier superior damage to push the enemy to use their V (or secure a kill) - hopefully before the enemy puts enough counter-pressure on the Musa to force them to flee.
The skill is not used primarily as a damage tool, but as a CC tool that has good damage attached to it. Prime:Gale will remain our "bread and butter" damage ability in PvP as it provides Super Armor that lingers and links fluidly with many skills in the musa kit.
All of that information in mind, adding Forward Guard to Prime:Blooming does nothing. The Forward Guard will cover the small gap between Prime:Blooming and the subsequent flow, but that gap was not a significant issue.
Removing the stun, however, will have a significant impact on Succession Musa in group PvP. We do not need more ways to deliver damage. I think that most Succession Musa players will agree that our damage is at times absurd due to how quickly we can unload our skills. I would also think that many other users who have been on the receiving end of a successful attack from a Succession Musa would agree that damage is not a weak point.
As stated in the flavor text above, Succession Musa users want to apply quick CC to burst targets. This opens us up to counter pressure. This is the playstyle we all accept. There are ways to address our ability to stay in the fight longer, but removing one of the only tools we have in our kit to pressure multiple opponents isn't the answer.
I have provided a more succinct version of this feedback in the Global Labs discord, which can be found here:
https://discord.com/channels/464331614059626496/565768488304640003/1071930859323654284
As a final note (and functional TL;DR), this is a video by user Soonuh, a tenured Succession Musa player who has contributed to the Musa community for years. He does a good job of touching on this issue, as well as reviewing the other changes.
Thank you for your time
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Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
06. Feb 2023, 10:58 (UTC)
# 3
It's important re-evaluate the changes and notice that P:Blooming is not a problem to be solved in the class.
We have 3 SA on Succ Musa:
1. P: Fiery Angel - stamina management mobility skill, nobody uses for damage
2. P: Rising Storm - Self Buff, very low use on PvP due needed to be chained otherwise super slow cast
3. P: Gale - Actual good skill with good damange that can be chained into multiple flows
That's all Succ Musa has access. A single damage skill in SA.
What Succ Musa has of FG:
1. P: Dragon Bite - Useless FG as it's so quick it's basically a trap thinking it has any FG, the "counter" play of the skill doesn't exist and it would be better if it was SA or iframe
2. P: Crust Crusher - Skill is so slow it's almost pointless in PvP if the target is not already on ground to attempt Down Smash
3. P: Retaliation - Good skill as it's our "Temp Q block" that you need to be "re-starting" every 3 seconds (would love it it would become a toggle).
4. Mountain Divide - Good skill that has two general uses for Succ Musa, one is the slow cast to take advantage of the FG, two is to combo and generate Serene Mind while attempting more Down Smash
Now there was 7 skills "protected" and only a single one has actual PvP damage potential.
What about iframes?
1. Chase - Chase being our movement skill makes it very hard to actually "plan" the use of the iframe as the skill turns into SA on cooldown and the game currently has gaps between the switch from iframe and SA, while this is supposed to be fixed, wanted to be transparent and point out we do have it.
2. Evasive Shot - The input on this skill is so bad you want to break your keyboard before attempting to use, the cooldown is so long you forget you even have the skill, the distance traveled is so small you can chase to the side faster. It's just a desync fiesta of bad skill.
That's all.
So right now we have "Two" "protected" CCs which are P: Dragon Bite and P: Retaliation which one is so terrible nobody really relies on it landing.
Removing Stun from P: Blooming is not a good design decision as it's removing the identity of the skill, removing a "Risk&Reward" element from it and not compensating the loss.
If you want to give Succ Musa more options, look at our stamina management issues, there's been so many topics about this and we still are a stamina starved class, Musas used to be called a High Mobility Class, does it feel that way current? No. Multiple other classes can travel more, faster, more protected while dishing damage and without stamina issues we ran into so easily.
Give us FGs in transition skills but don't remove important catch tools from our kit.
Potential skills that could receive FG:
1. P: Carver - Good transition between generating Serene Mind, not abusive on CD as FG could only happen when off CD, giving it more meanuning full / strategic use.
2. Dragon Claw - Rework (make it prime, nobody uses the absolute anymore, it's 5 skills not being used by ALL MUSA PLAYERS ON ANY SPEC)
3. Charged Stub Arrow - Could give us more options of protection while still with "engage potential".
The class suffers from more "ranged options" to do with long range/mid range combat, not close quarters.
At the end of the day, if those changes to P: Blooming hit the main server, the current rising population of Succ Musas on PvP field will go down again. Those changes are only hurting the spec potential, please revise them again.
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Lv 64
Matsukazee
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen :
15. Feb 2023, 23:22 (UTC)
# 4
Ok, so, I am not a great pvper on my musa, i just enjoy other parts of the game more. But, after a couple years of indesicion i transferred my gather xp to musa, and i LOVE it. I am so happy I found a male class i enjoy the movement on, and can PHYSICALLY use.
As of patch, for no explained reason that I can find, we can no longer basic attack in or right after forward dash. Im not sure this effects pve n pvp a ton, but it destroys the musas smooth gathering, as now you cannot quick cancel the dash and you have to wait, as well, to basic attack after it??
I have played for 6 years, and have developed some bad hand pain from playing classes that are too complex on the keyboard. Musa was my saving grace here, because i could gather effectively with just my cheap mouse. Since dash and basic attack was a thing for him.
I am unsure why any of these changes to musa were made, I am glad you started a thread, because as a musa fan, this is awful, and has really made me sad about my musa, and actually makes it harder for me to physically use. (I know, this is not general case for everyone but i hope my voice is at least heard about this. A good number of players who've played years, and put wear and tear on their hands doing so, simply cannot physically play some of the classes anymore, and musa is something that people with physical limitations can still play on a more basic level like gathering or low end pot grinding, because of the way dashes and basic attacks function).
What musa needs is NOT a chase flow nerf. It needs better FG design, and to have adjustments that SUPPORT the musas flow instead of hinder it.
I understand gathering may not be why everyone loves musa, but for someone who does snakes and scorps at tshira on them, or my favorite, going and gathering scorpions, which is only dash and basic attack, this REALLY makes musa FEEL bad immediately. Please, PLEASE, ADJUST some of this patch, as the musa suffers extremely from parts of it
Part A; a basic attack nerf is the silliest thing ive ever seen on a class. the rest of the chase patch seems to make sense, however there is NO reason and NO GIVEN reason, for disallowing basic attack flow after chase. Completely changes musas gather comfort, and i dont see why that would even be looked at as a change, why is this change even made here?
Part B; In the patch, it describes things the Musa struggles with, yet the patch actually makes it struggle more? Removing parts of the musas threadbare toolkit, is the OPPOSITE of what the class needs. It already struggles with multiple targets, so why remove multiple important skill functions??
Edit: To the OP, i know this threads more about Pvp related effects, but I felt the input regarding movement and FG's, would be in the right place here
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Lv Privat
Guardian_Ael
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