Title: Improvements for PvP balancing
Family Name: TheFrixs

Region (NA/EU): EU

Suggestion/Comments: (reading below - split into 2 posts)

Improvements (and tips) for PvP balancing

Hello everyone! I have made some conceptual tips that could possibly solve some balance dilemmas in the current state of the game.

I am aware of this topic is very controversial and so then I would like to ask you to try to keep as little bias as possible while reading. This is the topic in which I am trying to come up with the changes that can bring the game to a better level overall. As a person who has experience of almost 7 years with the game already with a love for the game combat system, I feel a duty to do so. To briefly introduce myself, I work as a software architect in my real life so simply said, one of my main goals is to build a system that must be sustainable for a long time period. Keeping that in mind, I have to think about a lot of things, check many points of view before implementation is made, and prevent possible critical issues. Similarly, I will try to introduce my ideas here for the game balancing.

Abstract

In this topic, I would like to talk about a couple of stages the game was in with no exception of the current state. I will discuss the differences between them, and what is the best about each one, and based on that I want to talk about possible ways that could be considered as improvements to the game balance. All the ideas and tips here are based on practical experience in the game from me and many other adventurers, I had the opportunity to talk to in a constructive way. At the end of the reading, I will write a conclusion for this topic.

1 Analysis of the game state

In this section, I would like to talk about some stages of the game, how it felt to be part of the game at that moment and what were the bright sides and the dark sides of that stage. I do not want to talk here about nostalgia, but to point out how the game is evolving and what major changes were made to the current state.

1.1 Evolution of the game

If we look back on earlier days of the game... we had no succession, no awakening, no core skills, no skill enhancements, etc. The only thing we had was our base skills (non-awakening). The game was completely different. Compared to the current state, the game combat was slow and very unprotective. You had to be very careful about your moves. The overall combat proved how great it is and the game started evolving very fastly.

It did not take so long for awakening specialization to be introduced. It speed-up the combat flow greatly and added much more ways to play, many ways how to use your abilities and use them in combos. It felt just great. With that great combat system that still evolving, some additional improvements like Skill Enhancements were introduced to bring some new ways to play your class and make your combat more fluent.

Also, a new CC system was completely revamped because of speeding up the combat with all the improvements before. With this revamped CC system, some things have been said: CC-per-hit should not exist anymore, chaining CC is limited as in the current state of the game, and abilities with CC and protection at the same time should not be a thing. All the improvements were so great to see implemented in the game and it brought much more competitively into the combat and player skill many players were just waiting for some e-sport-like tournaments. However, some of the previously mentioned rules in the CC system were not really followed. But addressing the issues wasn't as simple as it is now.

Following up with the next major changes, succession and core skills were introduced. Core skills were great and fresh changes into the combat system where players can slightly adjust the skill kit to their play style. Anyway, it contradicts the initial revamped CC system idea. It closed up some possible ways how to catch other players and players had to put more effort into put into CC someone.

On the other hand, succession brought up a whole new level of possible ways how to play your class. E.g. players who struggled in complex switching between base and awakening skills could play succession in a simplified but still effective way. After all of this, a lot of balance patches were required because of the huge impact on the overall class changes. With that, each change added something new that build up the current state of the game. I would like to focus on these small changes mainly in the next section (3).

1.2 Current state of the game

Nowadays, we have everything that we could ever want. In comparison back in the day, our combat is incomparably more fluent for every class. Changes that gave us more protection to feel more comfortable during grinding were great too. But with all the changes I described in (1.1) you might feel desynchronization during combat is more than a bigger issue. The combat is fast and the possibility of happening is increasing with it. Anyway, desync. is not the topic I want to talk about here. Some regions might have greater issues with it some others less. However, it seems some changes in protective abilities were made based on that, or at least try to distinguish classes based on their role (Tank/DPS). You might sometimes feel that catching someone is hard, nearly impossible, especially if he plays well. On the other hand, your equipment matters a lot in the game and It was a thing always at any time in the game. It is totally ok because we live in the MMORPG world. Anyway, your progression that you put sweat and tears into before achieving it, you might not feel as powerful as other classes, nowadays. These are one of the main issues heard that I want to discuss more deeply in this reading.

1.3 Evolution results

It is definitely hard to compare the early days of the game with the current state. But anyway, I will try to do that. It is definitely obvious that many new mechanisms and features like Core skills, Succession, etc. bring to the game more variety and the game feels more vibrant.

In contrast, speeded-up combat in comparison to early days requires more player skill to keep pace with the current PvP scene. Thus, devs obviously were forced to introduce some simpler way of play to offer the game to a wider range of players. Succession made this great, but it did not stop there.

The initial idea of the CC system shifted a lot and now we sometimes hardly find ways of caching some of our opponents because of superior protective movements. This is a great way to bring more people into the PvP scene and the game overall, it gives you more non-hardcore playstyle options. However, the game shifted a lot from the initial CC system and it started to break in differences in player skill required in each class, greatly. Self-positioning in fights and CC awareness are much less important nowadays compared to the early days.

While many new features are great and healthy for the game, in my opinion, they need some adjustments because I feel that player skills are being caged in a box, and your class selection and the strength of your equipment matter much more than it was before.

2 Balancing techniques

In this section, I want to show you my idea, of how game balancing should look like.

2.1 Rock-Paper-Scissors pattern

As the title indicates, you might notice the popular and simple game rock-paper-scissors in it. You can imagine this game as a circle where the scissors can cut the paper, but the scissors can get broken by the rock. In the same manner for all the 3 representatives. They sit in a circle where they have a powerful side and on the other side a weakness.

Similarly, classes are newly designed like that. Some of them present themselves as Tanks some other as Assassins. Nevertheless, this can work well in only one situation from all possible PvP situations and that is massive PvP with many people fighting each other. The contrast scenario would be 1v1 and small-scale skirmishes between.

While this is a good pattern to apply in games, it might not work well if you apply it in games where you have multiple types of PvP scenarios. For the games like MOBA, where you play always 5v5 in the same game, it can fit well, but Black Desert is a PvP sandbox.

What about changing the level where this pattern is applied? Classes are quite general to let this be applied to them. What about applying this within each class to their abilities? Abilities that are made for offensive moves are not well protected and the others are made for defensives.
That was already part of the game earlier before it shifted and devs changed it from classes to apply the pattern among classes. I do not feel it was a bad move, it was simply necessary at the time at which it was applied in. But it came to this time when it is hard to manage. And based on that devs released mechanisms like class ratios that can be a simple solution but in a short time period.

2.1.1 Consequence of the pattern change

As a consequence of the above change could be bringing back more player skill that is required in small-scale PvP scenarios. Each class has its strengths and weaknesses against all others. Specific situations where you have to split classes to their roles can be made special for massive PvPs. Maintaining massive PvP can be controlled by higher-level solutions in special locations (like NWs) similar to class ratios or DR HP brackets like it is now in RBF (I am not saying the same solution, just an example). Type of the damage Melee/Ranged/Magic could be potentially readjusted and used for it too.

Summarizing it, it could be good to look at the whole situation at it now, and try to reverse the design of it to fulfill more PvP scenarios with balance. Sometimes it is good to redo your operation and make it better than create a new operation that should fix your previous one.

2.2 Example of balance technique

As a previously mentioned pattern (2.1), we want to balance all classes according to that.
The game is based on the combat system which relies on the CC system. So, we need to make sure no class is going to have (so-called) "OP" mechanics in the game. This mechanic we can imagine as the mechanic that you cannot outplay and gives you a superior move that is nearly impossible to evade/counterplay.

The game is a sandbox with many classes, each class is different. One of the main differences is the class with a grab and the one without. So as an example, just based on this, it is clear, we do not want to create a situation where a single class cannot kill the other only because of lack of grab. So if you put on one side a non-grab class against the full SA/iframe class, it is going to be impossible to kill it unless you have enough damage. But, do you want to balance your game using pure damage where damage is going to be your mechanic in the MMORPG game based on your gear with such great combat intended to show off player skills? Probably not.

Correct adjusting of FG/SA/iframe or non-protective skills is needed then to leave some space for normal CCs (FG/no-protects) onto which you can focus as an attacker. Of course, the speed of your class takes a role too. E.g. tankier/slower classes will have more protective CCs than assassin classes that have nearly no protective CCs.

Summarizing it up, we want to create a class that can utilize its strengths as its specialization while each class still has weak points other players can aim and the players have to be careful of self-positioning in the fights to not reveal these weak points in dangerous situations. If you decide to go for the movement you want to do, you have to be sure you want to do that and if you fail, you can be punished for doing that (that is why unprotected skills should always exist and gives class and its player ability to scale his player skill).

The reading continues in the next post...

The reading starts in the previous post...

3 Possible improvements

In this section, I am going to talk about my experience and experience of the close surrounding in the PvP world. Additionally, I will point out a few issues that I and other players find as critical issues currently. Also, I will try to show the ways in which they could fix or improve (not a solution just a way).

3.1 Overview

With the current state of the game, it is noticeable some classes are more popular than others and some are nearly dead. It does not mean that they are useless explicitly, but the effort put into them is not worth the time compared to others. I am the kind of person that chose a specific class when first started the game and I still main the same class with the same spec these days even in PvE no matter of efficiency, simply I love the class and I play the way I want, not what class I should play by what the game says and gives.
But I am a special case in this and many players around me do not feel the same and they are more benevolent in this.

It wouldn't be a big surprise if I mention DP-heavy classes of the current meta in this section.
A lot of my friends of mine and other people have switched their main to one of the meta classes once their reached end-game gear or they started to be close to it (let's say 700gs+). Some of them agreed that those classes are busted and they are unhappy to let go of their favorite classes, but it is the only way to keep playing as another way of progression. From my point of view, it is understandable. Progression in some other classes that can use the equipment progression much more effectively because of their base ratios is much more rewarding with less effort put into it.
This current meta is represented by about 7 classes and it is very noticeable to see almost every end-game player has tagged one of those. It is hard to find other classes in the current PvP scene while you have simpler-to-play and more equipment-effective classes. Personally, I am not sure what it looks like in business numbers, but among players, it feels like, you play meta or you do not play at all.

3.2 Too much protection

One of the major issues that came up is closely based on the evolution I described in (1) followed by the balancing techniques (2).

Many classes nowadays are endowed by superior protective movement in offensive movements as well as in defensive movements in that way they are almost uncatchable with a normal CC which puts you into a tough situation to use only grab (if you have any) or defeat them using your stats (damage) but might be almost impossible (nearly unfair situation) if you make a combination of this with a situation described in (3.3). Another example of bad design in the game is the so-called 360-block (block with FG and SA). This creates a situation where players can "turtle" and wait for the cooldown of comfortable skills to continue without taking responsibility for their moves. Classes s that have abilities like this are already much tankier than others and there is no trade-off for that. This especially hurts classes without grab and makes it "OP" (as I described earlier) mechanic that they cannot outplay. 

I just mention section (2) here where I try to come up with a proper way of having a base balance among classes. I do not want to point out classes that the issue is related to. This reading is focused on the general way of how to balance the game, not hating specific classes.

But at least one specific example would be fine to show up. It is going to be very controversial, but I will try to talk about it as clearly as possible. This is a little bit special case because you cannot simply CC it and you cannot even damage the target at the same time.

One of the hardest targets you can find in the Black Desert world is Sorceress. Not because it has dangerous CCs or high long-ranged mobility but simply because it is hard to catch. The so-called queen of iframes makes it almost impossible to catch her into any CC for almost every class in the game and mostly you rely on desync/random CC. Which is not a good design as I already described (2). You cannot even out-damage her, simply because iframe does not allow it to you.

Well, you cannot damage her, and you cannot focus on any weak point (DoD is probably the best and only one). It seems like a superior pick. Well, even the Sorceress has its weaknesses, it struggles against block classes or long-ranged high mobility classes. However, these weaknesses are caused by other bad game design issues and those weak points are not the weak points that we want to talk about. Of course, we cannot simply change one or two numbers to fix this. Changing iframes to SA? Oh god, no. It would break the meaning and usefulness of the class. But somehow you have to open up space for CCs or damage even though you play the class well. Make the real weak points while not breaking the class.

3.2.1 Specific talk about Musa

Here I would like to mention Awakening Musa. I love the class, but I feel sad about how it is going with him right now after Reboot. I can remember back in the days the need of using non-awakening skills while today it's almost 100% awakening only. Before, I could clearly see a skilled Musa player. Now, it purely relies on his damage and we could call him a damage bomb. All the mechanics go aside. Mainly because of no need to switch to FG or non-protective skills because SA skills can be enough in high gear. The magic of awakening class that must switch skill kits is gone. Also, the other issues mentioned are related to it. I just wanted to mention it, the development of the awakening class like Musa could go better.

3.3 Class ratios and base stats

Today, some classes are predestined to be tankier than others. This scales greatly with their base stats and furthermore with the equipment. This opens up issue in the game that is based on character and gear progression because some classes may feel progression much greater than others. In the case of PvP, it opens unfair situations.
This change in class ratios was mainly made to distinguish tank and assassin classes, as I already described in this reading. But it breaks the major meaning and progress in the game.
Do not take me wrong. The difference in gear level should be noticeable, of course. But it should not make it impossible (or unfairly hard) to defeat others within some reasonable range or even on the same gear level. Every class has some assumptions to defeat others, but it never should be unfair or impossible.

The current meta even allows playing non-endgame equipment for defensive purposes to make your class tankier than before but with maintaining decent damage that you can defeat endgame DP players with. It would make sense if you build up a high defense that nobody can almost defeat you, you do not have damage at the cost of it.

In the game of class progression, you should not be forced to switch classes as part of the progression. Classes should be as much identical as possible in the base stats and scaling. The only difference should be the skill kit and the player that controls it.

3.3.1 Combination with heals

With the above being said. Combining (3.2) and (3.3) you get a very toughly catchable target where you have to be more geared than him just to deal with him. Adding to it class abilities that can heal themselves makes it almost impossible to defeat without being able to defeat the target in 1 combo or close to 1 combo (let's assume we do not fight meta vs meta).

4 Conclusion

In this reading, I went through the evolution of the game. What it was before and what it is now. What are the bright sides, but with focusing on the things we could improve in the future. All this is in section (1).
Additionally, I brought some ideas in section (2) of how the game balancing could look like and what would be great the balance would focus on.
I also went through some of the major issues in section (3) that players currently struggle with which are results of additive development of small balance changes over time.
As a result of this reading, shows up the direction of how the current balance shifted a lot from the initial game design in the early days and it is causing more issues while the pattern can get simplified.
Besides the major issues currently in the game it also shows the idea of how the game balance could shift to a more sustainable way. However, even though the changes would start to get solved, they are not the only ones, this reading describes just the first wave that needs to be addressed, not the superior move that will change everything to green numbers.

If you made the reading to this point, I hope it was beneficial in any way. :-)

Bla bla bla, what kind balance can exist when you can't even see basic information aka combat logs.

No combat logs no balance.

Too much gibberish, are you seriously expect that they will translate the whole text to Korean and send it to devs that will read it? 

We already know that class modifiers are bad, there was countless feedback regarding to that, all was ignored.

We already know that different base stats cause scaling issues.

We already know that musa is broken, there is even statistical evidence (look at AOS class ration) behind it, no f is given.

We already know that there is way too much protektion, lot of feedback was given, all was ignored.

We already know the solution to the DP/tanky class meta issue, there is already a topic to that, it's jsut (surprisingly) ignored.

Noone of the stuff in the topic is new, and most have multiple topics already, there is only one thing that is missing, it's the devs to actually care....

i kinda WISH we had rock paper sccissor balance. atm some classes have just predators and no victims.

Balancing in an MMO will never be perfect, Developers need to stop wasting resources endlessly balancing PvP since its impossible to ever get it to a point everyones happy, even League Of Legends isnt perfectly balanced and League is a game designed for PvP interactions and not an MMO like Black Desert or WoW, Lost Ark etc. If you want "balance" then have the fortnite method where a RNG algorithm decides if you killed someone or not and its completely random even this system wont please everyone. Players wonder why black desert struggles to release anything new on time its BECAUSE of people whining about how their PvP experience isnt perfect in a PvEvP mmo

Rework Shai please.