Title: Class performance overview in CC System
Family Name: TheFrixs

Region (NA/EU): EU

Suggestion/Comments: (reading below)

CC System Class Tier List

All mentioned in this feedback is related only to CC System in PvP when well played. No class-specific stats, ratios, etc. are taken into account. Feedback is made by multiple skilled players across the globe.

The class tier list is presented at the end of this reading. Read the conclusion first. The purpose of this reading is NOT to have a 100 % accurate list.

What was taken into account when created:

• Invincibility > SuperArmor > ForwardGuard > gaps/no-protection
• CC protection diversity in class skill kit
• continuity of protection and gaps
• duration / how long you can stay in the protection or you must stay in no-protection
• protected CCs (strong-to-have)
• CC-per-hit skills (powerful-to-have)
• partially protected skills (weak-to-have)
• animation-locked skills (weak-to-have)
• etc.

Examples of reasoning

Ex1: CC-per-hit skills have more value than normal CCs, especially those that are moving with the skill animation., non-stationary.
Ex2: FGs are great, but having too many FGs and not any other protection opens up so many gaps for CC catch so it's technically worse than having full SA in terms of the CC System.
Ex3: Having a lot of SAs is superior in terms of CC System, but having too many iframes instead is much stronger because it closes even the last option which is Grab, in most cases.
Ex4: A lot of classes have gaps (CC skills or not), but only some of those are reasonably long enough to be able to be punishable in gameplay without RNG/desync. So not all gaps are comparable, it is good to take this into account.

Conclusion/Description

This tier list does not show class powerfulness (just slightly), but the issues with the CC System. In theory in a perfect world, you should always have weak points in your skill kit no matter the opponent (more or less) that the opponent can punish you for opening them up to him. And according to this reasoning, the tier list is made.

So, if we look into the tier list, e.g. it does not mean Woosa (at the bottom of the list) is bad, but it requires much more knowledge in terms of the CC System, positioning in a fight, etc. On the other hand, classes in the upper part of the tier list, are so well protected that mostly only grabs can take them down (CC them), and almost no punishable gaps are present, which is bad design. It does not really mean, they are simpler, but much safer to play, in most cases.

You should always be able to punish your opponent for risky moves. Like in any martial art in real life, every move can be punishable. This game does not follow this and this is the origin of any class imbalance issues that we are facing all the time in the current state of the game.

CC System is one of the roots of having a balanced game. Currently, devs are trying to fix most of the balance issues with stats (more or less dmg) which does not work ... guess why.

Having too much protection with no punishable way is not a healthy system. A good example is the so-called 360-block (FG+SA) which might not be as superior against some specific classes but against a significant percentage of them surely is.

Suggestion

The main conclusion/suggestion that is coming out of this reading is to have an overview arranged in 1 list that you can read simply.
It is good to realize, the CC System is a core mechanic for balancing, and stat balancing is the second wave that is built on top of that. There is no need for huge changes, just a slight modification in the type of protection on some skills of each class could change the list a lot.

Try to focus on the health of the CC system as well as overall balancing, because some significant mistakes are made in it. There should not exist unpunishable moves in any type of gameplay or matchup. Last rebalancing using "too-much" damage from the last Reboot does not make any sense.

Class Tier List (CC System related) presentation:

(As mentioned above, it is related only to the CC System, no DMG trading or any kind of class stats)

Related topic: Improvements for PvP balancing

The Shai is really just Shai. Saddening.

u r smoking some fine crack if u put succ casters in low tier of protections/ccs. 

and some others.

Thank you for your feedback.

Anyway, the purpose is not to judge each class from a tunnel vision but to make as much as possible a generalized point of view. And according to all mentioned factors it ended up like it is.

You can read the full text for better acknowledgment.

Well he is a ninja player, but that screams from that image.

Regardless 90% of the filler in OP post, we already know that there is issue with sorc, and with the shield and glauntet classes, it's pointless to write a wall of text about it, PA don't give af anyway.

Also multi hit cc was removed already once, if it still exits for a class that is basically a bug that they devs was simply too lazzy to fix.

So homie...let me offer you some methodology to make this post more based and actually have a more realistic (data-based) Tier list, not something singularly based upon your own empirical experience.

1. Make a database of all class skills in the following categories (columns)

Skill name / Skill cooldown / Skill CC / Skill Protection / Skill Animation Duration {of Protection} / Skill Animation Lock

2. Extrapolate coefficients for each class effectiveness out of these numbers

3. Claim a Tier list with data included.

4. Offer actual + detailed solutions to balancing each class*

Don't worry if you're too lazy to do it, it's already in the works and it will happen eventually since I don't like having wasted time to do something halfway. However, I find myself spending less and less time invested in this game since my class is eternally forgotten for over 16 months. Also losing hope in the forum as the driest posts (with 10 engagements in total) get pushed to the feedback board while great ideas (some requested for 7 years in a row) are just getting shanked into shadow-ban oblivion.

Not to be only critical of your post or pretend that the system is fine (it's vehemently not) - the solutions to the CC/CC Protec class disbalance are really simple:

1. Use the Coefficient system mentioned above to make everyone have the same CC/CC Protec total coeff (which should result in more or less the same level of {non}protection)

1.2. You could even use the Coefficient system with damage totals to equalize damage between the classes

2. Remove iframes entirely from the game and replace them with SA.

Alternatively, remove all CC Protections from all skills and everyone the same 3 SAs + 3 FGs that we can distribute on any skill - hence creating another layer of customization and meta to the game. This would also mitigate the fact that some Awa classes {Sorc the main culprit} - basically get double kits since they constantly use their non-awa which gives them access to double the CCs and Protections.

It's just that PA is always more focused on monetizing their newest fomo class instead of creating longevity in the game which is why non of these are definitely not in their interest.

-

PS. Sorc Succ in "normal" tier... lol. Ninjas, Woosa & casters in low tier {are literally the dominators of Aos excluding Maegu}.

PPS. Grabs work against iframes cus of desync - at least on eu and na. It's not intended, but it is how the game plays out and strokers and zerkers abuse this mechanic constantly.

PPPS. If you want to CC an Awakening Sorc (as a ninja), just save your grab and wait for the crows. "No way to cc" just makes you seem uninformed to be making any assessments that we should be considering.. I've won more fights than i've lost vs Awa Sorcs {as a Succ Sorc without a grab and q block}, but that comes down to knowing each skill animation and when they are in frontal guard as opposed to an SA.

*One of the biggest problems of this post is that you've listed it under Feedback as a #suggestion and #presentation when its only an op piece on what you think the CC balance in the game is. No solutions offered {for which the feedback #suggestions and #presentations parts are specifically for) and will still probably bring more clout than other lucid posts on this part of the forum.

Yup, still exists for forward spinny skills that cross behind your fg. I think it relates a lot to the desync amounts we have in Na/Eu because I don't experience it when the servers are stable and experience it even in iframes when they are not.

Thanks for contributing some interesting ideas. However, it could be always made in a more polite way.

Anyway, to your last paragraph. This is all related CC System, not to class powerfulness. We build this on top of the well-played player gameplay. The example you provided with the ninja vs. sorc is a scenario in which any better sorc won't use Crows to get grabbed. Even though, it would still open up space for grabs only. We had to put a more generalized point of view on this and there is a huge diversity of skill kits. While some have very powerful protected movements some others are consigned to approach their target only in unprotected movement. More in the main post.

/facepalm. Someone picking your ideas apart = not nice. BDO Forum / Reddit logic. I'll be mean now though since this brain rot is causing me a migraine.

CC System = Class Powerfulness. Your post isn't related to ANYTHING. You don't offer any specifics. You are just stating that from your bubble POV you feel as if the game is unbalanced when it comes to the CC system. This is a fact btw, but you don't show any details on this, just a vague perspective, even though you could've just ripped off details from other articles already present here and on Reddit. Nor do you offer any solutions - nor address this in your comment to me (but would rather focus on {irrelevant} the PS/PPS part of my comment) since the holes have already been poked and the ship is sinking.

On to the PS/PPS, which isn't even relevant to this topic but was just advice for you to get better, which proves to be too hard with a Teflon™ Mind. Sorc Awa has many long ani lock skills apart from Crows - I warmly suggest making one and playing it for a while so that you learn what is what. Also, you stated "Well, top sorc players (1%) won't get caught" ... which can be also reversed right back at ya - You don't see Armin complaining about not being able to catch Awa Sorcs.

Generalization without methodology is pointless. It's just a personal opinion grounded in dreams. This is not mean - this is just facts on how good concepts/systems/opinions are built (or critiqued). As already mentioned by myself and others in this thread, you offer nothing new (no ideas for specific solutions, no "data-based" reporting) apart from your own OP on the gleefully obvious that has already been covered on this forum and beyond.

To finish, ima just leave these in the context of your response only to my PSs and not the meat of my topic, henceforth inducing the following fallacies all at once: a fallacy fallacy, tu quoque, personal incredulity, special pleading, burden of proof, ambiguity, anecdotal, texas sharpshooter and red herring.

Next time you want someone to engage with you in good faith - you should be responding and posting in good faith in the first place - as well as being open to critique to those poking holes in your not-yet-well-formed ideas. Maybe that will help you form an even better article than just crying "SORC AWA SCARY" + "Debate pervert offended me with facts" on the forums.