Here are the current coefficients for AP/Silver taken from Garmoth.com data. They are currently ultra-random and do not equal the effort (in gear and skill) required to grind a certain spot. The "Deboreka Neck and Belt are vanity items" argument is just dumb - I'd rather rare drops are completely removed from the equation (and moved to pity pieces / weekly quests) than the current state of the game.

Balancing of Silver/Hour would ideally be done via items (such as Caphras) and not via adjusting the trash loot because of all of the dangers of adding more (and more) silver currency into the game.

AP Coeff = Silver.per.Hour / Min AP / 100000 {rounded down}

Edited: A lot of flakes were triggered by the numbers. Here are the garmoth numbers for no-lifer blue loot scroll (no extra buffs) grinding.

Too much effort, too many numbers. Time would be better spent designing revealing, but shoddy, low quality outfits. 

And then proceed to release it for only 4 out of 17(?) female classes :D

You're calculating from wrong numbers, since the AP recomedations on the maps is misleading and false, and the silver values listed here is off aswell(you can make 1.2B/h in olun even currently and hexe can go up to 1.5b, ash, crypt have higher silver aswell etc...), but regardless while you would have point PA devs neither competent enough for this nor care enough to implement such things.

Also the proper solution would be if there would be at most 3 different spot category for 3 different range of gear, and they would all give around the same amount of money in the given category.

And then they could slightly buff one or two spot from each group tempearly every week/month, so the actuall best spots would contonously rotate, so there would be diversity in the grind spot that the ppl grind so it would be less repetative and the whole map would be ultilized that way.

But again too much effort and they don't care anyway.

A patently red herring argument to undermine the whole article (for some reason...even though we agree). I Used DATA from f-in' garmoth - something I specifically stated. Shit if you click on the CLICKABLE names of each zone, you'll even be led to the garmoth page with said data.

I can make more than that, you can too. That doesn't mean that outliers is what the game should be based upon.

B It's easy to be cynical and go into the "PA is incompetent route". That shouldn't stop people from making suggestions and engaging in good faith debates - unlike this whole f-ing forum that is almost as bad as general chat in-game.

C That's literally the result of using either a progressive or fixed (high) system -_-. Look at the numbers.

D I wouldn't create anything that buffs a spot since that would be reverting back the game to the exact problem it has now - overcrowding on certain spots because of OP Silver/Hr efficiency. The whole point of creating such a system and having spots be so close to each other is exactly to declutter each spot and create viability all over the map.

This is certainly a big problem in the game, specially because half the grind spots are just dead because of this dynamic. If a spot doesn't drop something unique or is the best silver/h, there is really no reason to go there. Doesn't even take into consideration that something like centaurs can be abused with a season geared zerker to match the income of someone grinding elvia spots.

Your data is rather misleading though as it seems you calculated all spots with agris, which is not a fair comparison. Some spots will use up a week worth of agris in an hour while other spots will use 1/10 of the agris. If you want to use agris you need to make an agris coefficient. Point is still completely valid, but the numbers seem a bit off.

I think your 2. suggestion is the only solution because inflation already hit us. If you lower the income, prices will still be high for at least a while and it will be a horrible starting experience for new players. People have amassed large amounts of silver, it would cause a multitude of problems. This happened in other MMOs where catching up becomes really difficult because the grind became more difficult for new players, rather than easier, as it should be.

I think what is missing is the AP cap issue, which should not exist in endgame. I think it's good that it exists in early- & midgame to not have very geared players competing with newer players but it has no place in endgame. If you're 730 GS and want to grind Biraghi you should have such a high clear speed that you can make silver close to where you should be grinding with your AP, altough less, to incentivize players to move on.

That bit wouldn't fly with PA. Reason being, they want us to fight each other over grind spots. But they at least state they'd like it to be done in a civilized manner... of sorts. Overcrowding some spots is done with intent. To encourage conflict and saltiness competition.

Treasure item or epeen spots would be fine having low trash/h value (like Ash), but what isn't nice at all is the fact that a 100 AP spot yields better trash (I'm not talking about other items from there) than a 270, 290 AP spot. I mean, grind Desert Fogans and compare the trash there with Elvia saunils, rhutums or giants. Why? Why gear up, even in Tuvala, if all I need to make some good silver is pen Naru? And why wouldn't I grind for gear that ends up - over the vast majority of the gearscore brackets and grind spots - yielding less value. 

A lot of things are awkward and insulting to one's commitment to the game and time. And PA's desire to see us fight over scraps isn't helping much either. I mean it is, if that's what keeps one interested in BDO. But if you don't wanna see every place as a makeshift RBF, then what?

If you want to solve the D then don't bother wasting your breath, PA already said that they want players to compete for the limited rescource.

Garmoth numbers are BS unless you know how to use the numbers correctly. Especially on spot like Olun, where if you don't know what are you doing, then you will going to make significantly less money, but that not mean that the spot makes low money.

Ash and crypt is undervalued since garmoth uses the market price to calculate silver, however that yields false value on items that are traded at max market price.

Ashforest is significantly more easy than crypt (or even oluns) so the difference should be definetly larger in silver than what you wrote here. Same for gyifin.

It's nice that you did put in effort into trying to find a solution, however your input data is wrong, so the end result will not be good either. First you would need to correct the AP that is shown on the map, since those are kinda wrong on the most spots, but even then it ain't really reflect how hard a spot is, especially that some needs other stats aswell.

They should be calculated with Agris, because your target balance audience should be the people that can grind 1 hour per day, not the no-lifers that spend 5+hrs of grinding per day - they should be getting deminishing returns on their hours. But yes, on top of this system, agris needs to be adjusted so that the rate of consumption (aka Agris Coefficient, as you've said) should be equal in each single spot.

AP Caps would matter if Orcs didn't exist. The fact that Orcs (and 3-4 other spots) are the most efficient Silver/hr spots regardless of caps shows you that their model for incentivizing players is not working.

More like, they want us to fight over 4 grind spots out of 57 in total in the entire game. That doesn't seem like good game design.

^ As mentioned above, do they want us to compete over only 4 spots in the game? Do they want 50+ other spots to be dead? Do they want players to feel like their gear / effort is not taken into account?

I believe the answer to all of these questions is NO - they don't want most of their game to be shit. However, if players cannot even agree on this and start semantic wars over every_single_suggestion posted on any topic, I understand the hesitance of GMs to relate any of these ideas to the KR devs, since if they come to read them on the forum, they will have to get through all of the vitriol communication that follows them which is probably not a great feeling for someone that loves and works on the game.

Tell me how to use Garmoth numbers correctly then good data sir? Don't just say, "you've used them incorrectly" without saying HOW THEY WERE MISUSED or showing HOW THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE USED (according to you).

Even if the AP numbers are somewhat incorrect, and Garmoth didn't remove all outliers from their avg numbers (which they do), these coefficients would still be quite close to the truth and any adjustments made according to them would bring all places closer to balance according to the gear/effort required to grind them.

But I guess the only available public data that one could input to make any adjustments is not enough for you, and only data from God himself figuring out the divine ratio between grind spots is satisfactory...

No one cares about this fake data from garmoth.

Show us clean trash, not "golden hour" on private marni zone with scroll, agris and sale of items which: only a fool sells (like caphras), which cannot be sold because there are hundreds of thousands of them for a minimum price (e.g. a traveler's map).

Conclusion: values in this table should be divided by 2 (and some even by 3) for the result to be correct.

Eg. waragons nest - 165m. I killed some waragons during event and the real earnings is 85m per hour. Polly - 487m? Rotfl. That's where I play for event seal and by the way I'm counting on great marni stone and real profit from trash is .... 130m per hour.