Hello community and devs,

Disclaimer:  I'd like this to be a construtive discussion on how we can improve existing systems.  Please do not reply with requests for a PVE Only server, there are many other threads for that.  Please comment with contructive input / critisism about how we can improve existing systems (IE: Karma).

I'd like to propose an idea I had when thinking about how we can make the Karma System "better".  As of now, it functions well enough to curb a lot of unfavorable OW PVP encounters.  Nowadays, it is quite a rare occurance to find yourself in a toxic PVP situation you cannot escape.  But I am proposing the Karma System can be taken a step further to improve on this -- because people still complain about being PK'd in an open world PvPvE game, requesting to change BDO from an unrestrictive, sandbox MMO to a restricted, possibly even instanced or hub-based (yes, I've read these suggestions), game by introducing a PvE Only server.  While I do not aim to 100% rule out that possibility, I would like to address the core issue of many player's complaints when it comes to this, and the way I see it, it is because of the inherent flaws in the Karma System that allow a certain amount of unregulated toxicity into the game.

The core issue of toxic behavior stems from individuals' choice of action based on what's within the confines of the game.  In MMORPG's, it is my belief that social interactions - whether peaceful or bloodthirsty - should be part of the core aspect of the game.  In BDO, social interactions are not done via dungeon lobbies.  It's not done via cooperative raids.  Most social interactions among players happens in the open world, if not including interactions with people players know personally.  In many cases, the actions we take in game derive from the choices we are given.  IE: "Do I PK this person who started hitting mobs in the rotation I'm occupying, or should I try to talk to them first?"  These choices fuel the genre of MMORPG.  I cannot help but feel that certain choices are done in bad spirit, with little to no consequence.  For these situations, I feel the first step in addressing these things is to take an ORGANIC approach and improve upon existing systems, instead of a FORCEFUL approach of aggressively changing the core aspects of the game to suit a particular group of players.

Here's what I suggest to improve the Karma System to; 1) Make more sense, 2) Be more prevalent in the minds of Adventurers, 3) Protect players from toxic PVP encounters and 4) Protect players from toxic PVE encounters.

Create a Regional Law System.

Balenos, Serendia, to Valencia, all the way to Haso.  It'd be cool if every region had regional specific Laws that players are to abide by.  Breaking laws will result in varying Karma penalties based on the severity of the crime.  IE:  Player A is peacefully tending their farms.  Player B and mercilessly slaughters them for no apparent reason at all.  Player B should then get appropriate punishment for this law infraction - as of now, this will simply dent their Karma, and if it is maxed out, will not be considered a Bandit / red.  IMO, this is a pretty toxic act, Player B's consequences do not fit the crime, IMO.  They should attain INSTANT Bandit / red status for killing defenseless civilians.

Different regions would have different laws / punishment severity to add spice to it.  Valencia, for example, could have the most lenient laws, being that the Desert was supposed to be BDO's PvP area (I've heard), but is just as tame as anywhere else.  Balenos and Serendia, the starter areas where most lifeskillers reside, should have the strongest laws.

Bounty System

Devs have spoken about this and I cannot wait until it is released.  IMO, though, it will fail IF the Karma System isn't properly addressed.  The core issue of toxicity in this game is player choices based on the options / consequences availale.  If those options / consequences remain the same or don't change much, nothing will change and this will be yet another DoA content.  Please, Pearl Abyss, do not fail this one....it has the potential to reshape how players interact with each other, give more meaning to open world engagements, organically and naturally alleviate non-PVP player concerns instead of creating an artifical non-real-BDO server for them, and add depth to the red life, if one so chooses that path.  Do not fail this one!  Be THOROUGH!  Please!

Allow certain areas of the map to be considered "Law Protected"

This is somewhere between a Safe Zone and Combat Zone.  While players can be attacked in L.P. areas, the consequences for attacking are higher than normal.  I am thinking major roadways, not roadways in grind spots, but those that link regions together.  This is a way to protect people AFK horse riding from point A to point B without totally ruling out the possibility of being PK'd.

Grind spots need to be advertised as "dangerous"

I cannot help but feel many new players equate BDO to WoW, or Diablo, in how it's played, not realizing how PvPvE works.  I apologize if this assertion is brash, but this is how I feel, after many interactions with new players who came from other MMO's, that they simply lack the knowledge that BDO is PvPvE.  I'd like to see the game explain this to new players better, that when in a grind zone, the possibility of being attacked by other Adventurers - who are after the same resources as they are.  The open world is teming with resources - silver is to be had in the open world, silver, being our primary means on making gains.  All of us mice are after the cheese, some mice will share, some will take turns, and some mice will kill other mice to have the cheese for themselves -- this is normal and healthy for a PvPvE game, IMO.  It just makes sense, and allows us players a doorway to social interaction.  Social interaction being KEY to this genre.  Social interaction brings about GvG, one of the most enojyed aspects of the game, it brings abot friendships and rivalries.  And IMO, just adds to the flavor and spice to the game when you don't know if that white dot on your minimap is friend or foe.

So how can we uphold the integrity of BDO being a PVPVE game while improving on the perceivably toxic situations many new / non-PVP Adventurers have to deal with?

Thanks for reading,

PiC

I would rather they remove Karma all together and replace it with a different system.  One that penalizes repeated deaths while not penalizing those who got killed by some random person.  Also this system would need to be implemented on all characters on the account, not just the offending character.

If you attack and kill someone that is not flagged you are red for 15 minutes per kill with a max of 3 hours for land, free to be attacked by anyone.  Karma pets and Karma scrolls make it so that killing mobs removes a few seconds from that timer.  If you attack and kill someone who is flagged up (flagged not Crossed swords) there is no Red player penalty.  In order to attack a red player you have to flag up yourself meaning that you can fight back if attacked, but you can not just attack a red player unless you turn your flag on.  A red player that dies in the desert gets kicked to jail.  A red player releasing to "town" as opposed to the nearest node is revived at any random node in the region that person is being released to.  Naval Karma should be adjusted where if you attack an unflagged ship you get a 1 hour red naval timer, and if you sink a ship you get a 1 day timer stacking up to 30 days.  All timers run while offline.

If someone flags up, the flag timer stays for a minimum of 5 minutes if you hit another player, not 30 seconds (seriously who thought that was a good idea) if you do not hit another player you can turn it off and it will disappear 30 seconds later (to prevent flag baiting and turning another player red.  While flagged (don't even have to hit anyone) anyone else can attack you without gaining red status, but those people must flag themselves.

Each death you get a stacking debuff that lasts 30 minutes.  If you use a pearl item or your outfit negates death effects the debuff is not applied, Duels, GvG, Arsha, both players flagged, desert, and Nodewars also do not apply this debuff as well, red players always get this debuff.  If you have 2 or less death stacks and there are zero penalties, 3 stacks and you lose 0.001% xp on your next death applied on release unless you stay dead until the debuff falls off or release to town, 4 stacks same thing only it is a 0.01% xp on death release not to town, 5 stacks 0.1%, 6 stacks you lose 1% per death again not applied if you release to town, 7+ stacks is 2% unless released to town AND you can not release to the zone you are in, so if you are in Calpheon you get ported to a random other capitol city.  If the full xp amount is not available upon release the player will then be notified that releasing has a chance of breaking crystals.  If no crystals are available to be broken then gear can be down graded.  A red player can not avoid a death penalty by releasing to town but may avoid death penalty by using a pearl item while releasing to "town".

All stacks get removed when you swap channel except the red timer, you can also swap channels while dead, doing so will release you to your ESC, escape location and will incur no xp loss penalties.

This would make it so that someone can't just throw themselves at a spawn point with zero penalty, while also penalizing people who just kill others with impunity.

This is great.  I really wish they'd take a serious approach to Karma and seriously consider how to fix it / improve it.  Open World can be so much more meaningful, not for having more PVP or whatever, but because it just makes sense.  Currently, the Karma system opens doors to toxcitiy.  Your comment here seems really interesting and would eliminate the whole "I have X number of Karma, I can PK X number of unsuspecting people before going red", and it would also eliminate, "I'm going to throw myself to someone and purposefully die repeatedly to lower their Karma."  With your system, it seems fair.  Sounds really fun too.  Maybe some rehashing here and there, but overall, great.

People who are low geared, unskilled in PVP, or a combination of both will still get PK'd while grinding, but with the system you presented, they can easily swap servers, hopefully with reduced swap time if they get PK'd again on the other server.  Maybe some things can be ironed out, but overall, I like it and think it is a great contribution to figure something out.  I really, really hope the devs are serious about the Bounty System and This is the overall goal here, devs.  take community suggestions into consideration.

"This would make it so that someone can't just throw themselves at a spawn point with zero penalty, while also penalizing people who just kill others with impunity."

This is the overall goal, Devs.  Doesn't it just make sense to try to reach this goal?  I'm sure everyone can agree that attaining this goal will be good for the game.  New / non-PVP players can rest assured those PK'ing with impunity will take proper consequence while being able to swap server quickly if needed, and players cannot simply remove gear and throw themselves at another and purposefully die over and over again.

I love all of these suggestions, they are all very well thought-out and clearly show a passion for the overall health of the game.

In particular I would love to see something similar to the 'Law' system you suggested. I know that something fairly in-depth like this would be a bit of work to implement, but even something as simple as a karma penalty adjustment per region would be a great start (your example of super harsh penalties in Balenos vs. super lenient penalties in Valencia was perfect).

Also LOVE the idea of 'Law Protected' zones as an intermediary between Safe Zones and Combat Zones. I absolutely agree that main roads need to be at least partially protected somehow, and there are many other areas where this could be utilized as well (honestly anywhere in Balenos, protect our carebears!).

A giant PvP alert message when entering grind spots would also be very valuable for new players, something that can be easily toggled off in the settings but might save new players a lot of heartache. Even veteran players might find something similar very helpful, maybe something that detects the amount of players currently within a grind spot upon entering and displays a little warning that the area is 'heavily contested.'

All in all, kudos kudos kudos. Thank you for typing this up, wish I could upvote more!

Here are some suggestions, a mix of personal ideas and some ideas from others. 

Warning : my premise here is that any player on BDO accepts the presence of owpvp and is at least ready to bear with it. If you think that any use of owpvp against an unprepared or unwilling player is unacceptable, you shouldn't read the following because it even implies penalties for the victim. Yep, I dare. 

To begin with, I think that a good owpvp system needs a good basis. 

Grind spots :

 - A logical evolution in grind spots : every spot should aim at a more precise range of GS, players should move to harder spots in a smoother way, and obviously harder spots should give better benefits. 

I’m not saying players should stick to one place until they can move to the next one, there should be several places available per range of gear but the idea is that benefits should always get higher when you move to the next, harder spot : that is not always true right now.

 - No rare drop that is only located in a low level area : what’s worst than having a well-geared character and seeking a rare drop stuck in a low level area? And it will attract highly geared-players and create conflicts between players who are clearly not on the same step of their progression. One idea would be to link these drops to a region, and having a wide range of grind spots for many GS. Maybe Hadum Elvia realms is a good idea if devs apply it on spots with rare drops. 

 - More group spots : playing in groups gives more protection against isolated pkers. 

 - Many patrols with strong NPC soldiers around safe spots and on major roads, and some minor ones, really stubborn when it comes to killing pkers (and pkers only, they would not care about mobs at all). 

The karma system :

 - Every pk should immediately make the killer go red, for a temporary duration

 - The duration would be based on the current karma level at the moment of the pk. 

 - By pk, I mean the fact of killing his opponent without letting retaliate. 

- If the opponent fights back, it activates a pvp mode (think about the purple state in L2) and every side gets a small karma reduction for trying to kill each other when one of them dies. 

 - If another player attacks one who is already engaged in pvp mode, it will still be considered as pvp even if the player gets killed without retaliating. 

 - Karma would be regained slowly over time while not in the red status, for the connected character only. 

 - Starting from the fourth pvp death from the same player, victims would get the same penalty than a second pk death. 

 - None of this would be applied in case of guild wars. 

Penalties : 

 - No pve death if one got hit by a player in the last 30 seconds.

 - For victims, dying from PK would prevent them from rezzing on spots starting from the second death caused by the same player and they would reappear at the nearest safe zone in a weakened state (reduced DP against mobs, reduced attack/casting/movement speed) with freezed buffs. The weakened state and buff freezing would be removed in 3 situations : by switching on another channel (no delay in this case, for 5 minutes after the first switch), after 15 minutes, or with the death of the killer (no matter who or what killed him) and during this time, you can't switch characters. 

 - For victims, dying from pvp would allow them to rez as usual, with a slight karma reduction. 

 - For killers, PK would activate the red status for a set duration : from 30 seconds to 30 minutes depending on karma. During this time, they can't switch channels (hey, they wanted this spot, right? ^^), they can't go on another character, they can't use the escape function, they can't log out. If they are disconnected, if they are killed while they are red, they lose the red status and their buffs, they go to the nearest major town and they get the weakened state mentioned before, without any way to reduce its duration. This duration would also be based on current karma when they get killed or disconnected. During this penalty, player would still not be able to use another character nor switch channel, they have to stay connected on this character until the end of the penalty (max 30 minutes) 

 - For killers, killing from pvp would only activate the small karma reduction, but not the red status.

(In case you didn't notice it, this system implies several things : no more mob feeding, no more endless bodythrow, even ks would be more dangerous than now, no more pk alt nor victim alt as you're stuck on the character during the penalty, no permanent penalties except the buff loss for killed pkers, clearly harsher penalties and risks for the killer side, one can go on a PK spree without increasing his current red status duration but it still means he takes increased risks in case he gets killed while being red or pk again later. 

Moreover, it tends to limit the number of time a player can come back, with the weakened state and freezed buffs. In case of pvp group fights, it may last a little longer because, if you remember well the weakened state and freezed buffs can be removed with the death of the killer. However, it can be applied once again and if a whole team is under this state, we can consider that one side really wins and the other should switch. It also emphasizes the use of war decs. 

Before someone says it, yes, players may have to be careful to avoid the red status. But do not throw the nuclear bomb if you can't bear to go red. 

And yes, for me permanent penalties only hinders the use of owpvp and discourages lower players from participating because… Well… They have more chances to die! In fact I don't think permanent penalties are a good choice in a game where stuff can sometimes be so hard to get, but that's a really personal point. Sorry for the digression.) 

Protectors / bounty hunters / whatever :

 - Players can register as protectors in every major town, on a precise server and its channels. 

 - Players will be seen as protectors on this server, but not on other servers. 

 - Protectors can know the number of pk currently connected in each region, on the current server and its channels and move freely between the channels of this server. 

 - Protectors don't have to activate owpvp to hit a red player. 

 - PK can kill protectors without any additional penalty, and they don't need to activate owpvp to hit a protector. They will also see the "strong enemy" warning when a protector is near (and protectors would not have this warning, we can call it the "killer 6th sense" ^^) 

This is nothing more than ideas and it surely have flaws ; however I do believe that "using owpvp itself" to control potential excessive behaviours will always be a better idea than hard rules and specific channels. Thanks if you really took the time to read this wall of text! ;) 

@Desymoo and @Sadalsuud

Thank you!! These are great suggestions, very well thought out, without bias to either side of PK-er or victim.  Desymoo, your idea of notifying players if a spot is heavily contested or not seems interesting.  It could be implemented in a way such as the Black Spirit being able to detect the presence of other Black Spirits in grind areas, the BS's that reside in all our characters.  Our BS would tell us if he sense a high concentration of other BS's in an area, seems interesting and not immersion breaking at all.  Thanks!  I'm glad you enjoyed reading my ideas, like I enjoyed reading your thought-out ideas!  Sadalsuud, as always, you present clear thought process and thinking things out, like Werbs and Desymoo here.  Not an immediate, "I don't like this so remove it", ideology that many who want PVE Only say.  Really intriguing, and I like how you considered all sides.  Really hoping the devs take a good look at what's suggested here, and really hope they have enough strength and fortitude to know what's good for this game, as a whole, and do not cave to potentially game-breaking ideas without a lot of forethought and planning.  PVE only server, that would just be another band-aid, similar to Arsha server, to a larger problem, I feel -- the larger problem, the broken system that allows people to be toxic (Karma) by body-throwing (karmabombing) and a certain allowable amount of uncalled for PK.

Thanks!

I really like the law idea and I believe it is crucial for the game as a whole to deal with red and make it a real playstyle. Thank you for posting this, PiC.

I haven't had time to read the thread and now it's time for some X-Com 2, long war.

It time to kick some ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of gum!

But I will read it. I saw this and want to participate in the discussion. Maybe I get some ideas if I read what you guys wrote. Thank u all for fighting the good fight here!

Thanks Poly, sorry so late of a reply.  Yeah, these are just ideas.  To me, it feels like PVE only server is "giving up".  Like, throwing hands in the air and going "I give up, it's too hard to find a real solution, so let's just bad-aid the problem - here, pve only server".

Hopefully you can come up with some ideas too because you make cool posts lol.  GL in X-com.

This is the most amazing comment section ever!

I feel like this is all focused more on the "victim"

But what if you get griefed by a low gs player... You can flag to kill them but they wont bugger off (karmabombing), then what?

Honestly such things need to be adressed as well, not just for the lower gs to be protected from pvpers...