Family Name: Cillian_Raynor 

Region (NA/EU): NA

I tried to separate my post in paragraphs but it's not working!?... sorry for the block of text.

Oh and a solution i forgot is to keep the same spawn rate but increase the chance of getting knowledge (or higher grade) by a lot.

Why make it so complicated? Knowledge of gatekeepers, Kvariak and Katzvariak should be available from npcs, just like it is, for example, with world bosses.

This problem is not just about them, there is more: Lee Duksoo, Jang Iksoon, Geuseunsae, Mudang Wraith, The Phantom Knight of Bartali III, Incarnation of Corruption, Olun's Silence, Raz'nal, Fallen Ataraxia, Saigord, Ulutuka, Erebjork, Vercedes. All these bosses have no system for grinding their knowledge.

agree with this one

Kvariak is a bit of a pain.  It's a hidden "drop" boss.  Increase your drop rate to get more spawns.  I've had days where i could get 4 spawns an hour, and others where it's 1 spawn in 3 hours.

Erebjork and Vercedes are grindable, and seem to have a decently high knowledge chance on kill (Ulutuka is also grindable but seems to have lower chance). For most of these you can kill the boss, if you don't roll S, forfeit the quest and pick it up again. One notable exception to this is Imoogi - you can only get this knowledge as quest reward, not from either killing in the quest nor killing in boss blitz, therefore you have only one chance per char (and after doing many hours of questing).

I don't really agree that knowledge that you can grind should just be obtainable from NPCs. It is fine for there to be some work involved. For world bosses, you have knowledge from NPCs because it can be extremely difficult to get last hit. For bosses that you're soloing anyway, I don't see a need for this.

Kvariak can indeed be A LOT of work. The best strategy I can think of is placing an alt at Kvariak's position, loading all knowledge buffs you possibly can - GM buff, all the rare ones from various events, etc. When you trigger Kvariak, switch to that alt, so you only spend like 30 seconds of the knowledge buffs per Kvariak spawn.

But the hardest knowledge entries of them all are Mutant Troll / Mutant Ogre. You need last hit to have a chance to roll the knowledge. Solo it takes hours per kill and with a group only one can have the last hit. I'd suggest something like what we have for Garmoth now - at least let everyone who participated have a knowledge chance.

No, bosses that have a 0.01% chance of spawning are not a system for grinding their knowledge.

No, it doesn't work like that. Knowledge is obtained as a reward for completing quest. How would you like to forfeit quest that has been completed?

And I don't agree to masochism just because it suits you.

Deleting knowledge in the library in Calpheon and changing characters dozens of times is irritating enough (not to mention the fact that a topic was created in which players demanded to change this system).

No strategy will help you, I use 5 t3 bird pets, glasses, earring, and other bonuses, getting S from Agrakhan required killing him over 100 times in my case. Only that there were daily scrolls to Agrakhan, and the chance that Kvariak will "drop" (because Kvariak  spawn as drop) is below 1%.  On the other hand, I obtained S from Garmoth in the 7th attempt without any knowledge bonuses and without my pets.

Mutants are practically impossible to kill without 80-120 players and even then fighting them takes 20-30 minutes. Knowledge from these bosses can be obtained from quests, the problem is that these are one-time quests.

Currently it looks like this for me (and I don't intend to gain anything more without making changes I mentioned, i.e. knowledge from npc):

Vercedes is spawned pretty reliably once per hour, it's not even RNG - it's built that way. Erebjork RNG spawn also averages around 1 per hour, but since it's rng, of course your mileage may vary.

The quest bosses you mentioned have a chance to give knowledge on kill. A few of them also additionally give it as a quest reward, but that's just a bonus. I've pushed all those quest bosses to S just by forfeiting and reaccepting. Like I said, Imoogi is the only exception (also possibly Lee Duksoo and Jang Iksoon, didn't do quest forfeiting with those).

Actually grinding the mobs is how the ecology knowledge system was designed to work in the first place. It sounds silly to me that you want it to be common to just get knowledge from NPCs when that was only added as a workaround for rare cases where last hit is difficult to get (group content where there are many players so you are unlikely to get last hit). What they should do instead is make it reasonably fast to get it through actually grinding, not offering workarounds.

Deleting knowledge is indeed janky. That's why I'm saying it should come from grinding, where it can upgrade and you never have to delete. You are even contradicting yourself here - first you want more knowledge from NPCs, and then you complain that deleting knowledge is irritating when that's only necessary because of knowledge coming from NPCs.

Agrakhan had a 15% base chance to drop knowledge. I suspect your higher grade knowledge bonus was low in that case because the buff drastically changes your chances there. The base chance for S from any source is 1%, but buffs are additive, so T5/T4 pets+lightstones+accessory+meal+savage gives +43%, so with those buffs the S chance is 44%. With the same buffs, the knowledge chance is +207%, which raises the base 15% to ~46% (this time multiplicative, not additive). This leads to around 20% of S per kill. You could also delete knowledge and redo the black spirit quest before, which had guaranteed knowledge drop, so with that the chance would have been 44% for S with these buffs.

I agree that Kvariak is unreasonably hard. That's because, as OP said, spawning it can take a very long time. For example, both Vercedes and Erebjork spawn faster AND have a higher knowledge drop chance, which combined make them trivial compared to Kvariak. With the buffs I mentioned earlier, the chance for S per kill is roughly ~3.4%, which on average would work out to about 20 kills, but if you're not lucky, can take far more. That is why I loaded all special knowledge buffs onto one char that sits at Kvariak - with all those buffs that alt has roughly 6.6% chance for S per kill, which would average around 10 attempts, but I guess I'm not quite lucky yet since I'm past that.

They take a long time, but not that long. I've done them in a group of 6 recently and it took us like 35 minutes per kill. I also know that at least 3 people have got S doing them solo and they've said one kill has taken them like 4 hours (good gear and buffs though). But this is definitely way too hard. Not only are you killing one mob for 4 hours to guarantee a last hit - there are zero grind profits and it's EXTREMELY tedious.

Overall I'd say that the ecology entries that definitely should to be made easier are Mutant Troll, Mutant Ogre, Kvariak and Imoogi. Some of the scroll bosses that were trivial before since you could just spam scrolls may be very difficult now too, which should be looked into.

ROTFL. RNG, maybe one per hour. Are you serious? And this is supposed to be a way to grind knowledge? As I said: I'm not a masochist.

But it's the ones in Land of the Morning Light that pose the problem. The ones from Odyllita are probably bugged, I killed Saigord dozens of times and didn't get knowledge. Incarnation of Corruption is also killable, but requires quests for bs, if someone has done them will no longer gain knowledge (the only option is alt char).

Do you have any idea about gaining knowledge from bosses? This is exactly how you get S from world bosses: talk to the NPC, change character to the one in the library, delete C, B, A, A+, change character to the NPC, talk to the NPC, gain knowledge.

And this is the only grind I can accept (I can add an exception for main quest bosses: after completing quest, we can spawn this boss in the same place and kill him).

ROTFL. Percentages never add up like this, ever!!! If you have +10% to the base 10%, it means that you have 10% + 10% of 10%, i.e. 1%, i.e. a total of 11%.

I took part in killing mutants, so I know what I'm talking about. There were definitely over 100 players and killing the mutant took about 15-20 minutes. And you say it takes 6 people to do it in 30 minutes, ridiculous.

They may spawn only once per hour, but their knowledge drop rate is also higher, so it's not that bad. Again, I see it as expected that if you want S for mobs at some spot, it will take some time grinding there. It wasn't designed like Character knowledge where you just go talk to NPCs once and you're done. Completionism in games has always involved some effort. The only problem are outliers that take far longer than everything else.

Aside from the 3 I mentioned which might be only from quest reward, you can either just forfeit and kill again, or for the bosses that have a blitz, you can just quickly kill C1 version of them in a loop until S. Odyllita quest ones are not bugged - the chance is just low, I pushed all of those to S by just repeating the kill quest, but for some it took like 30+ attempts. I do agree that this might be unreasonable since forfeiting quest feels pretty janky, not an intended thing to do. Also, using another character to do the quest sounds fine to me. It's the same way for main story quest bosses which you can also repeatedly kill using forfeit.

Like I said, that method was added as a workaround because getting last hit on them is not something you can reliably do. NPCs are not the intended way that ecology knowledge was supposed to work. It should not be necessary for solo bosses since you should instead be able to kill them enough times to get the knowledge. So your idea of being able to spawn quest bosses would indeed make sense. For world bosses and mutants, I think they should do it like they recently did with Garmoth - the knowledge drops as a loot item.

I can't even tell which part of my math you think is wrong from this comment. Please point out the specific mistake I did. But first read this: https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Wiki?wikiNo=380

I did this like 2 months ago. I'm not even sure what to say here because I did it - unless you fry my brain to delete my memories, you cannot possibly convince me something I actually experienced is "wrong". I find it hard to believe anyone managed to get a group of 100 for this in 2024, so I suspect your information is outdated, and/or those people were not geared and buffed.

We're talking about bosses, not mobs. Grinding knowledge from mobs is a natural process. Although there are anomalies here too, because in the case of some "objects" (e.g. towers, etc.), gaining knowledge from them is much more problematic than from mobs, although they have the same percentage of chance.

I've definitely killed Saigord over 30 times. The lack of any knowledge of it is therefore unnatural.

Two issues:

1. The most important thing is still the chance of knowledge and even in the link you provided, the chance counts as I wrote, e.g. +50% to the knowledge chance from a mob that has a 40% knowledge chance, i.e.: 40% + 20% (50% from 40%) = 60%. The average mob has a 2.5% - 5% chance, so even if we have a 100% knowledge bonus, it only gives us a 5% - 10% chance for knowledge.

2. In the case of a chance for higher knowledge, it is different, ok, I didn't know that the percentage is added there, but you should pay attention to one thing: what is the importance of this parameter since the next knowledge from killing a mob or a boss will always be higher than the one we have. In practice, whether we get C or S at the start is not that important, because after C we always get B or higher. Of course, by getting S first, we save time.

And this is where our different opinions come from. You did it 2 months ago and I did it 2 years ago. During this time, the effectiveness of our statistics has increased so much that they allow us to break through the completely unrealistic statistics of mutants.