I'm insulting Non-mystic players coming in here talking trash, Obviously we are gonna get Mystic Haters in here most of which were prob killed by a high geared mystic.

As far as we're players are at you do realize that trial chars are at 633gs?

You do realize that what keeps players from getting to 700gs is being corrected next week?

Every player in this game will be able to have FULL PEN armor/weps within 9 months.

You also realize those same players will be able to hit C9 armor and weps within a few short months after that and with the Pen accessory, ALL Pen capotia accessories from season and 1 Tet boss earring OR base capotia and your litterally knocking on 675+ GS.

Unless your not paying attention to the catch up mechanics being instituted there over all avg GS is going to be in the 650-675 range within the next 12 months. You have a MASSIVE % of players that don't have Pen that will be fixed soon.

I never said Mystic was not a 1V1 class in fact I even posted that she is in the top 10% of all 1v1 dualist classes.

But this game is NOT just a 1v1 game, this game also is not full of noobs, 5v5 sure but it will depend on the make up of the other team adding in a sage regardless if they are soft can destroy your evasion passive in 1 skill that you will get hit from range making ALL classes on the other 4 of the team pretty much wrecking you even with 395dp.

I simply think you have not actually been out doing much PvP or node wars you my friend are not as tanky as you believe to some noobs sure but give it 6 months and your gonna be talking a whole nother story.

I'm insulting Non-mystic players coming in here talking trash, Obviously we are gonna get Mystic Haters in here most of which were prob killed by a high geared mystic.

As far as we're players are at you do realize that trial chars are at 633gs?

You do realize that what keeps players from getting to 700gs is being corrected next week?

Every player in this game will be able to have FULL PEN armor/weps within 9 months.

You also realize those same players will be able to hit C9 armor and weps within a few short months after that and with the Pen accessory, ALL Pen capotia accessories from season and 1 Tet boss earring OR base capotia and your litterally knocking on 675+ GS.

Unless your not paying attention to the catch up mechanics being instituted there over all avg GS is going to be in the 650-675 range within the next 12 months. You have a MASSIVE % of players that don't have Pen that will be fixed soon.

I never said Mystic was not a 1V1 class in fact I even posted that she is in the top 10% of all 1v1 dualist classes.

But this game is NOT just a 1v1 game, this game also is not full of noobs, 5v5 sure but it will depend on the make up of the other team adding in a sage regardless if they are soft can destroy your evasion passive in 1 skill that you will get hit from range making ALL classes on the other 4 of the team pretty much wrecking you even with 395dp.

I simply think you have not actually been out doing much PvP or node wars you my friend are not as tanky as you believe to some noobs sure but give it 6 months and your gonna be talking a whole nother story.

If you're running 301k on mystic and whine about being squishy, then consider changing your build mate. Also you're admitting to purposefully insulting others, not the smartest thing to do. And if with that ap you need 2 combos to kill someone with 395dp, i have no clue what you're doing. Are you even pressing buttons outside of e->lmb?

Assuming that people who disagree with you are undergeared and/or aren't mystic players is also kind of ridiculous, considering you clearly lack knowledge of your own class, as I specifically think you're the one talking trash with your ridiculous proposals. You really seem to just cry out for all the buffs because you lost to numerous classes, on which you have clearly ZERO clue. hash has 30 accuracy buff? And you took it from where, ShakyBay video?  Please tell me how mystic is bad in GvGs/NWs/Siege considering you are a cc powerhouse with huge utility and solid damage? You also need to score top of the scoreboard? Having 700gs doesn't make you neither a good nor knowledgeable player, learn some humility.

Mystic could use some tweaks and we'll probably see what's to come, but you should first learn your own class before others school you on that. Then you can try to learn some others before you start talking trash.

I believe that Mystic discord also compiled ART input, reviewed by AoA winners, and I'd leave it to that.

Wall of text:

I think the problem with these threads is that since everyone is allowed to post, lots of posts come from people who don't play the class and their only experience is from the receiving end, which can differ quite a bit from how it is to play the class. Especially important in large scale where you sometimes only notice a class during its glory moments, and don't see all the problems that happen normally, like getting cc'd in gaps, spending half the time in slows or on low stamina etc. Arguing against buffing a class because it can be strong when stars align is a retarded position to take.

Anyway, I'd like to explain what I think is problematic with the succession (and only succession) spec, and what changes could be done. As a reference, I take the recently reworked classes on glab, and occasionally what I consider to be the best classes on live.

First, to identify the main problems:

1. Stamina management. The main issue with the kit, imo. You run out of stamina very quickly if you have to stay agile, and the only way to properly recover it is using easily punishable stationary partial animation locks like Soul basher, Thunder pound etc. While the idea of a class having to moderate its movement based on stamaina isn't bad, there are simply too many classes that get much more for spending less (like nova), have much better management and backup options in case you run out (sorc), or just don't do any stamina management at all (warrior). This affects both 1v1 and large scale if you don't run a carpet build.

2. Protection gaps. Mystic is supposed to be a sort of a front line class, even though succ is kind of in between that and a rat (skirmisher/assassin, from now on referred to as just rat). Still, since it doesn't have enough resources to freely reposition all the time (see 1. stamina management), or the cooldowns (4s on main movement skills as opposed to 1s or none on most rat classes), she needs to be able to survive better in a blob, by at least not getting ccd through gaps. There aren't that many, but some notable ones are end of Silent step, and the entire back dash after Crouching wolf.

3. Safe damage. While mystic's 1v1 combo damage is good, her safe burst damage in group fights is lacking, particularly because the highest damage ability in the kit is unprotected. Why the distinction between protected and safe? Because it often isn't the same thing, e.g. a skill that's very quick or long ranged can be safe even if unprotected, while a long, telegraphed, animation-locked melee frontal block skill is generally unsafe, even if protected on paper.

4. Identity crisis. What kind of a class is succ mystic even? If it's a rat, then it lacks a lot in movement and speed department (long cds on movement skills, the skills themselves a slow, compare e.g. silent step to ninja's ghost step), has too many animation locks and is too predictable. If it's a bruiser, then where are the usual tools associated with those classes, such as lots of protected damage, easy to apply safe slows, self heals, SA-block, resist self-buffs etc? For a hybrid that it is, it inherits too many downsides from each archetype, for too few advantages.

5. Cosmetics. Make the weapons visible with Margoria outlaws outfit. Sorcs can see their amulets, so why can't we? Add a hide option for those who don't want this, same as with offhand.

There are also some things where I think the class is alright and does not need improvement:

1. Tankiness. I'd rather have more speed and iframes to increase survivability. Just blunt tankiness creates immortal carpet builds which leads to bad gameplay.

2. AOE. I personally like the small aoe concept, especially since it is a melee character who fights with her fists. Again, I'd rather have more speed and agility to improve positioning precision in pvp than just bigger AOEs. In pve just add more damage to compensate.

3. Damage. Our pvp damage is fine in itself, it just needs better means to apply it.

Finally, some concrete suggestions on how I would accomplish the above goals, skill by skill. I know that all of these at once would be busted, that's not the point though. These are suggestions of what could be done to each individual skill. The text behind "//" are explanations of why I think it's a good idea

Soul Basher - make cancellable at any time instead of splitting into 2 animation locks like now.  //currently it's one of the worst defensive stances, because not only do you collect all the slows and damage from the front, you are also easy grab target for anyone know knows how it works and has a quick engage (e.g. warrior)

Blowdrive - add superarmor at the cost of it being an animation lock. //would not be op because it's a flow after a slow skill

Adamantine - make the cc come out quicker, i.e. shorten the wind-up of the skill. Remove stamina cost. Maybe fix the guard direction of backwards adamantine. //more responsive protected cc to catch sorcs and ninjas

Mass destruction - split the initial dash (slide) and the first attack, like on Striker. Move the 6% accuracy buff to first attack. Make only the dash SA even on cd, but up the stamina usage to 250 when on cd (150 off cd). //this would ease positioning precision a bit for a high stamina cost

Somersault - make it chain quicker into dashes and other skills.

Dash buster - make it chain a lot quicker into other skills, also make it come out quicker during somersault. //it's currently not useful because it locks you in animation forever, otherwise it would be a nice 12% evasion debuff

Hidden claw - extend the iframe phase a little into the forward movement. This would make it a less risky to use to dp debuff in group fights. Maybe remove the interaction with soul basher.

Savage fang - make it chain into other skills quicker so it can be a viable quick kd attempt.

Fist fury - remove airsmash from last hit. Make the frontal guard extend into the floating hit when chaining it after other skills. //would add a viable protected engage with dash - fist fury, and a safe followup float in group fights.

Twisted Collision - add fg? //not really needed if some other proposed changes happen, could stay unprotected to differentiate from striker

Landslide - extend SA to landing, like striker rework

Fatal smash & Strikethrough - these are quite redundant as they do the same thing as landslide, maybe give more forward arching movement, a bit like nimbus strike, but not really.

Elbow edge - make it cancellable into other skills after 1st hit //the idea of a high risk, high reward engage is great, but in a world with 60% stiff resists on most players the risk is unjustified, even when timed perfectly you end up just looking stupid half the time.

Rib crusher - this is not really useful in succ. Maybe add kd resist ignore or something crazy. Or nothing.

Tornado kick - remove airsmash.

Sweeping kick - speed up the animation by about 30%.

Roaring tiger - make 100% rage worth using

Rage hammer - change it to a tier 3 addon skill

Sea burial - this has a problem of sometimes slipping into falling animation when taking a lot of hits, due to hit stagger shortening animations. Maybe make it suppress falling animations after it's used until you're back on the ground (sort of like Lahn's landing skills do) to fix that.

Wave orb - give fg? //this has potential to be broken, in fact if it got fg without any other changes right now on live, succ mystic would instantly become a top tier class.

Amplify Martial Spirit (E-Buff) - replace "all dp +20" with "ignore all resists +30%".

Flash step -  reduce cd to 3 seconds/make shard dashes iframes or fix hit stagger //compared to other rats, mystic has lower and more predictable forward mobility because of comparatively long cd on the dash. If succ wants to be a better rat class, the cooldowns should be lower. Also, hit stagger makes movement distances very unreliable during sa dashes. Ideally it should be removed completely.

Silent step - speed up the animation by ~40%, make the iframe extend into the landing phase, or make it possible to chain into other skills as soon as you land //silent step is one of the slowest side dashes, while also having a gap while just about every class has linger on their iframes these days

Wolf's Frenzy - make the attacks SA OR make it cancel straight to last hit if pressing F, increase targeting range, turn it into glab succ striker version if no target found. //make it broken, I mean every class has broken stuff, so..

Scissor kick - remove stamina usage. Give prime version SA, or if that's considered too strong, give it SA, make it go further and faster, but keep the float on the last hit like the regular one. //We need some lingering SA skills to recover stamina in that aren't stationary

Crouching wolf - make the S dash a proper iframe, that's start to end 100% coverage. Also remove stamina usage from the dash. Make the dash go forward if pressing WW keybind, and sideways if pressing Shift+A/D. //why does this fake iframe currently cost 400 stamina?? No, really?

Prey hunt - extend the attack speed buff to 20 seconds, like in Striker rework. Add "clear all slow effects from self and nearby allies". //give a way to deal with the most annoying thing in the game, and help allies at the same time

Rabams:

Nature's Wrath - rework it, it's a bit of a noob trap currently. Maybe make it protected (remove cc) and instantly cancellable, so it's actually viable as a buff

Perfect blow and Iron fist fury - reduce cd to 7-8s, buff dmg on Iron fist fury

Thrashing Wolf - make it possible to cancel after the dash phase

Raging Wolf - add "ingore all resists +20% for 10s", remove SA //mystic relies heavily on landing ccs. Why does she not have an resist ignore buff/passive?

I didn't mention some skills, specifically the Adamantine and Thunder pound flows. I think there is enough skills in the kit with low enough cooldowns that at this point these ones will always be redundant. Of course they can have their numbers gigabuffed, but that will dumb the class down to "press rmb for damage", and this is not desirable. If anything they could be reworked into optional (possibly mutually exclusive choices, like the nodewar dp skills) augmentations to their parent skills, similar to what Shackling chain is to TP now (or something more interesting, like choosing between faster or hard hitting adamantine, or a "flow" that changing TP into last hit only). This would imply a much deeper reworks though, but maybe PA will surprise us.

The problem here is you, Sage main saying my class has no issues what a Friggin joke..
Hash has a 17% accuracy passive at lv 60 add in succesion passive jumps to 22% thats without any skill add ons or buffs toss in sand divider for an additional 9% for 10 seconds with the skill cool down of 3 seconds and your siting at 31% standing accuracy buff full time. thats not flaky bay thats just understanding the classes obviously you dont.

would you like me to teach you about your Sage as well?

Personaly i think its time to stop while your ahead your only trolling another classes reboot that your completely clueless about.

The problem here is you, Sage main saying my class has no issues what a Friggin joke..
Hash has a 17% accuracy passive at lv 60 add in succesion passive jumps to 22% thats without any skill add ons or buffs toss in sand divider for an additional 9% for 10 seconds with the skill cool down of 3 seconds and your siting at 31% standing accuracy buff full time. thats not flaky bay thats just understanding the classes obviously you dont.

would you like me to teach you about your Sage as well?

Personaly i think its time to stop while your ahead your only trolling another classes reboot that your completely clueless about.

I suggest you to fact check yourself before making up numbers. 

Awaken hash has a 10% accuracy passive with no accuracy modifiers on his skills

Succession is 15% 

That is 19% with inquisition 

And 24% with succ and sanddivider

Which doesnt even come close to other classes that got 25% accuracy modifiers on various skills.

Its also very hard, if not impossible to combo someone if I dont crush them with my lead in gear, maybe thats just me but they always get up in the combo during Hidden Claw (which flows are also unnecessary cause they deal about 0 dmg), so maybe it needs more finetuning in CC and/or dmg in general, but im really stepping in the dark there.


You basically just admitted that you don't know how to put together a basic PvP combo. You say you have experience in Succession but you don't even know how to combo? Mystic can easily fit together 2 Kd attempts plus a backup float or stun in a combo in order to deal with adamantine users, all the while only sacrificing but a minute amount of damage.

Wall of text:

I think the problem with these threads is that since everyone is allowed to post, lots of posts come from people who don't play the class and their only experience is from the receiving end, which can differ quite a bit from how it is to play the class. Especially important in large scale where you sometimes only notice a class during its glory moments, and don't see all the problems that happen normally, like getting cc'd in gaps, spending half the time in slows or on low stamina etc. Arguing against buffing a class because it can be strong when stars align is a retarded position to take.

Anyway, I'd like to explain what I think is problematic with the succession (and only succession) spec, and what changes could be done. As a reference, I take the recently reworked classes on glab, and occasionally what I consider to be the best classes on live.

First, to identify the main problems:

1. Stamina management. The main issue with the kit, imo. You run out of stamina very quickly if you have to stay agile, and the only way to properly recover it is using easily punishable stationary partial animation locks like Soul basher, Thunder pound etc. While the idea of a class having to moderate its movement based on stamaina isn't bad, there are simply too many classes that get much more for spending less (like nova), have much better management and backup options in case you run out (sorc), or just don't do any stamina management at all (warrior). This affects both 1v1 and large scale if you don't run a carpet build.

2. Protection gaps. Mystic is supposed to be a sort of a front line class, even though succ is kind of in between that and a rat (skirmisher/assassin, from now on referred to as just rat). Still, since it doesn't have enough resources to freely reposition all the time (see 1. stamina management), or the cooldowns (4s on main movement skills as opposed to 1s or none on most rat classes), she needs to be able to survive better in a blob, by at least not getting ccd through gaps. There aren't that many, but some notable ones are end of Silent step, and the entire back dash after Crouching wolf.

3. Safe damage. While mystic's 1v1 combo damage is good, her safe burst damage in group fights is lacking, particularly because the highest damage ability in the kit is unprotected. Why the distinction between protected and safe? Because it often isn't the same thing, e.g. a skill that's very quick or long ranged can be safe even if unprotected, while a long, telegraphed, animation-locked melee frontal block skill is generally unsafe, even if protected on paper.

4. Identity crisis. What kind of a class is succ mystic even? If it's a rat, then it lacks a lot in movement and speed department (long cds on movement skills, the skills themselves a slow, compare e.g. silent step to ninja's ghost step), has too many animation locks and is too predictable. If it's a bruiser, then where are the usual tools associated with those classes, such as lots of protected damage, easy to apply safe slows, self heals, SA-block, resist self-buffs etc? For a hybrid that it is, it inherits too many downsides from each archetype, for too few advantages.

5. Cosmetics. Make the weapons visible with Margoria outlaws outfit. Sorcs can see their amulets, so why can't we? Add a hide option for those who don't want this, same as with offhand.

There are also some things where I think the class is alright and does not need improvement:

1. Tankiness. I'd rather have more speed and iframes to increase survivability. Just blunt tankiness creates immortal carpet builds which leads to bad gameplay.

2. AOE. I personally like the small aoe concept, especially since it is a melee character who fights with her fists. Again, I'd rather have more speed and agility to improve positioning precision in pvp than just bigger AOEs. In pve just add more damage to compensate.

3. Damage. Our pvp damage is fine in itself, it just needs better means to apply it.

Finally, some concrete suggestions on how I would accomplish the above goals, skill by skill. I know that all of these at once would be busted, that's not the point though. These are suggestions of what could be done to each individual skill. The text behind "//" are explanations of why I think it's a good idea

Soul Basher - make cancellable at any time instead of splitting into 2 animation locks like now.  //currently it's one of the worst defensive stances, because not only do you collect all the slows and damage from the front, you are also easy grab target for anyone know knows how it works and has a quick engage (e.g. warrior)

Blowdrive - add superarmor at the cost of it being an animation lock. //would not be op because it's a flow after a slow skill

Adamantine - make the cc come out quicker, i.e. shorten the wind-up of the skill. Remove stamina cost. Maybe fix the guard direction of backwards adamantine. //more responsive protected cc to catch sorcs and ninjas

Mass destruction - split the initial dash (slide) and the first attack, like on Striker. Move the 6% accuracy buff to first attack. Make only the dash SA even on cd, but up the stamina usage to 250 when on cd (150 off cd). //this would ease positioning precision a bit for a high stamina cost

Somersault - make it chain quicker into dashes and other skills.

Dash buster - make it chain a lot quicker into other skills, also make it come out quicker during somersault. //it's currently not useful because it locks you in animation forever, otherwise it would be a nice 12% evasion debuff

Hidden claw - extend the iframe phase a little into the forward movement. This would make it a less risky to use to dp debuff in group fights. Maybe remove the interaction with soul basher.

Savage fang - make it chain into other skills quicker so it can be a viable quick kd attempt.

Fist fury - remove airsmash from last hit. Make the frontal guard extend into the floating hit when chaining it after other skills. //would add a viable protected engage with dash - fist fury, and a safe followup float in group fights.

Twisted Collision - add fg? //not really needed if some other proposed changes happen, could stay unprotected to differentiate from striker

Landslide - extend SA to landing, like striker rework

Fatal smash & Strikethrough - these are quite redundant as they do the same thing as landslide, maybe give more forward arching movement, a bit like nimbus strike, but not really.

Elbow edge - make it cancellable into other skills after 1st hit //the idea of a high risk, high reward engage is great, but in a world with 60% stiff resists on most players the risk is unjustified, even when timed perfectly you end up just looking stupid half the time.

Rib crusher - this is not really useful in succ. Maybe add kd resist ignore or something crazy. Or nothing.

Tornado kick - remove airsmash.

Sweeping kick - speed up the animation by about 30%.

Roaring tiger - make 100% rage worth using

Rage hammer - change it to a tier 3 addon skill

Sea burial - this has a problem of sometimes slipping into falling animation when taking a lot of hits, due to hit stagger shortening animations. Maybe make it suppress falling animations after it's used until you're back on the ground (sort of like Lahn's landing skills do) to fix that.

Wave orb - give fg? //this has potential to be broken, in fact if it got fg without any other changes right now on live, succ mystic would instantly become a top tier class.

Amplify Martial Spirit (E-Buff) - replace "all dp +20" with "ignore all resists +30%".

[...]