Nope, good rules exists, but you don't accept the idea of a middle ground because it would go against the idea of having pure pve channels. 

And they chose to do arsha as a permanent channel without restriction, but no pure pve channel. Devs already chose. 

And for woots, there's no interest if this is not a working solution. Pretty simple. 

Great points and you reminded me of an article I constantly posted on the old forum.  Here's the opening lines.  It basically describes what you're saying, in words directly from the mind of an actual, respected and experienced, game-designer.

"Civilisation game-designer, Soren Johnson, once wrote on his blog, “Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game.” This was something that I originally considered to be an alien concept – until I realised that I do this, and so does everyone else.

It comes down to an interesting question – what is the objective of a person playing a video game? Why do they do it? Will they take actions in the game specifically to have fun, or will they choose to forgo fun for the sake of making the game easier so therefore to ‘do better’? Johnson, in this quote, argues that the player cannot be trusted to play the game in a fun way, but rather a fashion where they will play better.

"Some would then argue that the feeling of doing well in a difficult video game provides a kind of enjoyment – which is true. However, I’d argue that this is only a feeling that many players have when they’ve been playing a game for a while, and they initially struggled with it. The feeling they are enjoying is a sense of achievement and progression – it’s good to know that you are getting better at something you once found challenging. If there was no challenge to start with, it is unlikely that any such feeling will be experienced; it’s boring because the game is too easy (of course, some games aren’t supposed to be challenging, and the enjoyment comes from other elements). I’d argue, then, that the feeling of doing well in a game does not correlate to enjoying the game.""

- https://henryvincent.uk/2018/09/13/optimising-the-fun-out-of-video-games/

Quite an inspiring read and one I'd def recommend checking out.  I highlighted some points that stood out to me.  How it can relate to BDO, is this "feeling of doing well" that Johnson is talking about, and "feeling a sense of achievement and progresion" is when a player feels the tangible benefit of higher gear and better combat skills when it comes to spot defense.  Players get frustrated about being low-geared and having stronger players stomp them - this is basically what people do all the time here, just look at the PvE Only server threads.  But when said player fights through the frustration, or takes motivation from getting stomped and actually gets some gear and combat experience / knowledge and can defend themself from attackers -- that tangible benefit brings a tremndous amount of satisfaction.

"The feeling they are enjoying is a sense of achievement and progression".  This is very true, because I experienced it myself.  I wasn't always competently geared and competently versed at Sorceress (Sorc is my day 1 class, never rerolled, Sorc for life).  I used to get stomped on all the time at Sausans, by literally every class.  I'd get mad, rage, try my best to annoy the attacker -- all that -- but I didn't make any forum posts complaining about being stomped on, nor did I even think of a PvE Only Server in BDO.  Because to my understanding, even back then, is that BDO is a PVPVE GAME.  I took my shots on the chin, wiped the blood from my mouth, and used this as motivation to get stronger.  And here I am, maybe not one of those montage-worthy Sorc players, but I will 100% hold my own, and it feels great.  And this great feeling wouldn't have ever occured had I not progressed my gear and achieved a better grasp on how to control my class and use strategies against other specific classes.

This is BDO.  A PROGRESSION based game.  You guys think progression is only EXP or stats?  Wrong.  Progression is also getting good.  And this very important element of the game would simply NOT EXIST with a carebea ----- uhhh, I mean "PvE Only Server".  I've experienced it myself.  If a PvE Only server existed, of course I would've grinded there as a low-geared, bad combat mechanics, player.  But I have a strong, strong feeling that if I did, I wouldn't be where I am right now, wouldn't have found a passion for progression, and wouldn't be able to confidently defend myself and the resources I claim, like I am now.

Also, thank you to the mod who deleted posts.  It was getting heated (I guess).  Let's get back on track.

Muuuuuhahahahhaaaa. This game don't have any f. progression. It takes YEARS to play fairly (not pay) for pens. You pay and you have extreme huge advantage. Period. "TET player" don't have any f. chance vs "PEN player".

Why? Because even 20 AP or 20 DP = impenetrable wall. Why hardly anyone plays Red Battlefield? Why even more then 80% bdo player dont care pvp? I'm higher then soft cap and on rbf many players one shot kill me. ROTFL. It's simple stupid.

S. PA adding more and more class only to sell more and more from IS so we don't have any f. balance. Once class have 8 grabs, other don't have even one. One class have almost all skills with protection other none. And the most funny: full melee class like berserker can attack you with grab at a distance longer than archer or ranger shot range. "Range classes", muuuhhhhhaa, range classes that fight in close combat and have a short skill range.

A hard progression is still a progression, and at full TET you're already more geared than many players.

So if you're only looking for fight against full PEN guys, you're the one asking for trouble! Just play against common players like yourself, like me, like many of us around and accept the increased possibility to bite the dust when you meet the top 1% in gear score, but you won't make us believe that you ALWAYS find them in owpvp. ;) 

Easy solution for the Karma issues in BDO;

Create some PVE channels

Remove Arsha channels

Remove Karma system from all servers

Simple fix.

From my experience it is like you said Gottplex, its either someone lower gear score, someone same gear, or completely out matched.  Mainly the issues would be those players that are high geared and can take out a player in one or two combos.  I wish partying up or even sharing the rotation would be possible.  I hate seeing this topic come up over and over again because it is something that isn't really addressed well and seems to be avoided or deflected when asked to the developers.  I think it would be a good step forward for more suggestions as to how we should approach this.

The current norm of doing DFS is ok but at the same time is really unfair at times.  Blood Wolves for example is where nearly all gear score players come and try to get their chance at the pot piece.  Just because someone is out geared shouldn't mean they "own" that spot.  On the flip side if you were in the spot for, lets say, an hour and someone comes in you shouldn't have to feel obligated to defend or give it up.  The missing change or improvements to the system has generally caused players to revert to petty or toxic behavior where in an end result it enables an elitist like mentality (no room for the weak).

Again I think it would be great to see a PvE server like Rika mentioned.  Maybe creating party dungeons? Instanced areas?  It would be cool to see something like that where you can enter and not have to worry about Kbombing constantly.  Of course something like that would required sacrifices and prices to be paid in terms of rewards/exp or whatnot.

Partying up and sharing a rotation is possible, though.  Spots like Mirumok, Tunkata, Olun's, Gyfin...these places actually encourage grouping, because doing so will yield the greatest EXP and income.  These spots are designed to be group spots, but spots like Blood Wolves and Star's End are designed to be solo spots.  EXP is reduced, and so is income, when grouping in solo spots.

As stated in our other discussion, the devs themselves have stated they do not want to add instanced content to the game, yet, have delivered us Altar of Blood and Savage Rift.  I believe, to alleviate some of the requests for instances.  Similarly to how they added Seasonal Servers and Olvia Channels to allevite some requests for a PvE only server.  I like that they're taking baby-steps in fulfilling these requests, because making such big, sweeping changes to how the game functions could turn it on its head, like you mentioned.  I could take the time to try to find these quotes from the devs if needed, but if you're OK with taking my word for it, that'd be great.  I have no motive here but to uphold the integrity of this PvPvE game, and offer insights that consider the big picture, while doing my best to not ignore the details either.

The reason I like BDO over any other popular MMO is how different it is.  It's truly PvPvE.  How can we keep BDO a PvPvE Open World Sandboxy MMORPG while considering the woes of lower geared players?  How can we introduce ways to protect low GS from high GS bullies organically, instead of a forceful move like adding a whole new spin on BDO (PvE Only version)? 

Here's some points I've gathered on this topic, that do not take away from the game, that instead add to / improve it in an organic manner:

- Add scaling respawn timer if a player is consequtively PK'd by the same player.  This will help reduce Karma Bombing

- If a player has a long respawn timer due to being repeatedly PK'd, that player will have the option to instantly swap to another server to reduce the respawn timer

- Rework Karma System

- Rework consequences for being negative Karma.  This should address "Karmaciding".

- Allow players to hunt reds as a Bounty Hunter

I feel an instanced BDO is not the BDO we've grown to know and love.  I can only speak for myself, but I'm sure other vets will agree, we play BDO because it's a sandbox-y, non-instanced, open world, PvPvE MMORPG with great combat and a diverse lifeskill system.  An instanced version, or PvE Only version, of BDO is just not BDO...I don't really know how to word what I mean by that, but hopefully you understand.

INB4 - Someone says "BDO is a P2W slaughterfest where high GS P2W monkeys prey on new players" or something like that.  Just wanting to get that manuer-argument out of the way.

Because the whole treasure system is poorly constructed. 

7 types of mobs ... but only 1 drop a treasure part. And have 0,005 or 0,0005% chance to drop.

Treasure parts zones will be ALWAYS occupied. 

Yes Blood Wolves that's a very good example, they do not require very good equipment so even 200 AP player can play there ... no he can't. Why? Just because of this pot part and 280 AP players who kill him with one shot. 

We may disagree on some points, but on this point, I whole-heartedly agree 1000% with you.

Anything that may group in the same area average players and advanced ones is a bad move. Each of these treasures should at least be droppable on a wider GS range of spots. 

Thank you for this interesting and constructive comment!