What Claudia doesn't want you to know about Sorc:

Sorceress: The #1 example of what happens when you buff movement. This class has gotten buffed to the point it is unfightable in close quarters but every single class in the video game just chooses to walk away from you. Anytime you feel forced to fight this class there is 0 enjoyment just throwing skills into the abyss and praying and losing damage trades to her. The class has almost everything going for her but the lack of movement does not allow her to play the game in the current environment. She is a balancing nightmare because she gets movement now and she is impossible to beat, but keep her this slow and it's just frustrating to play as most of the time.

Oh, so OP is NA's version of Lemon, got it. That makes your credibility even worse.  And looking at your adventurer profile, I can see you haven't even remotely played any other character besides Sorc... So literally the most biased of biased takes, from the most biased of players. Cool.

Anyway, it's not a popularity contest. It's simple majority rules. You take and apply the choice that benefits the most people the most. PA did not know what that was, so they asked for feedback. The people voted that their best interest and what benefitted them the most was not what you wanted. If you don't understand that concept, you don't belong in a society. Either way, you do not get to take that back. You do not get to pretend like you got bullied out of what you wanted, either. You do not get to denounce it at all. That's just pathetic, and only proves you are a selfish person who only cares about what you want.

Also, overinflated ego, much? Who cares if you've killed more people in rbf? All that proves is you play rbf more than other players. Lemon was the same way, and he wasn't some giga-knowledgable saint of balance. He was a skilled player, sure, but he was a mentally ill person with very selfish takes and severe personality issues first and before that. He complained about literally every other class and talked down to literally everybody else. Do you really want to put yourself on that level? Actually, I think you already have. RBF score... lol. Just lol

As you said, people voted in their best interest and for what benefited them the most. Well said! 

May I add for OP, it does not mean they all blindly voted for their poor selfish interest. Having a grab class or not does not define their ability to have a critical thinking about the whole balance, many players have several characters they like, experience in pvp, and even a filthy main grab class player can have a open-minded point of view on this matter.

Short answer : this is what players choose, based on what they think is the best for the game. 

Yes sorceress, the class that has not a single representative in the top 100 rankings in NA right now; and in pretty much all of pvp has less representation than like 5%. But no, according to you it is sorceress that which is the problem, while there are classes much better at pvp which you conveniently avoid mentioning. Sorry but not even the developer is going to believe you, especially because they have the actual stats. Try making your lies more believable and you may have a chance to fool anyone that doesn't play a meta class. :)

But I propose a deal to you . Challenge ANY of the top 10 in the AOS ranking to repeat their achievement but using sorc instead of what they used. Good luck with that. :)

As for your last post, what you regurgitated is talking in the hypothetical if sorc were to be granted movement, and I know your goal is to just derail the main topic regarding everyone getting a grab, but if you paid attention you would notice that you are just saying that sorc is a nuisance to fight and nothing else,  and yet not a threat in any significant capacity. which still is irrelevant to the point but since you are incapable of countering anything that was said in the first post I'll entertain your comment just for the sake of keeping this thread bumped. (ty btw :))

But I don't take it personally when people like you attack sorceress, because I know well that you are just desperate:

• If I played a Dark Knight, you would attack me because I am a Dark Knight that is asking for the grab-skill to be given to everyone.
• if I played a Witch, you would attack me because I am a Witch that is asking for the grab-skill to be given to everyone.
• If I played a Maehwa, you would attack me because I am a Maehwa that is asking for the grab-skill to be given to everyone.
• and so on...

It never really mattered to you what class I play, it is about trying to discredit me instead of my arguments, because I dared to ask for everyone to be given a grab-skill in order to make the playing field more equal. Unfortunately such tactics of derailment are very easy to spot, like your post I am referencing.

Lemon for president! :o

And I don't know, with posts like yours which can only try desperately to derail the main subject with references to old players because you are incapable of countering any of the main points, that sort of suggests your credibility is questionable. while you and those that have the desire to perpetuate the current imbalances may be the majority, you forget that the developer has no horse in this and thus will not fall by such childish tricks. And yes, I Proudly leave my profile public, notice the lack of variety since I value consistency and improvement rather than easy rerolling which jut dissapears with balance patches, notice the mostly low levels and the fact that I've only leveled to ~Lv60 those classes that had some intro event to benefit my main. Notice how none of my alts have any lifeskill ranking because to me pvp had much much higer priority than making passive money through fame. Notice that my starting date is december 2016 which is when sorceress was considered the worst pvp class in the game. And realize that that scoreis the product of never touching a meta class nor one with a grab-skill (something beyond your understanding); on top of this, I seem to understand the pvp dynamics far better than you evidently don't! So now the meta-class chasers attack those that stick to a single class? lol priceless MMO garbage.

I am merely pointing out an obvious voting under-representation for the population that needs buffs the most. The one that is crying is you because you are so terrified that the developer might actually realize the underlying partiality of submitting the future of balance to a popular vote. Why are you so afraid of me merely pointing out what is undeniable, that there are far more classes that have a grab and thus it is obvious that they won't be voting against their own best interest. Just in the same way that an under-represented class cannot hope to get the buff it needs by mere popular vote since their population is so low to begin with that in terms of abundancy they would never be significant for anyone to notice. These are mere facts that need to be compensated for if and only if the developer is sincere regarding them wanting to better balance the game and not just ask the majority if its ok to give the minority not even a better abilities but mere equal abilities than the majority.

I said it before, my world's highest kill count if anything says that I pvp A LOT, and that I do. And that comes with a lot of experience too, but let's pretend it doesn't since I won't be needing that to refute what you say here. I remember reading lemon's self-interview. And tbh, he/she was 100% spot-on with their analysis at the time, on nearly everything except regarding their own class (in my opinion), since tamer was already extremely powerful in duel, not so my class (if you really want to go there). If anything you criticizing their take to me shows that you have always been a person that cannot discern imbalanced in pvp when you see it. Tbh I think it is very cowardly of you to be attacking people who no longer play and aren't here to defend themselves.

Yes, that is indeed so obvious to the point that it's surprising to see some think it helps their cause and not hurt it instead. To begin with, that notion falls flat on its face the moment it is once again mentioned that the side with the win-button (grab skill) constitutes 2/3 of the electorate, while the side that (needs grabs) the most is just 1/3 of the electorate.

A moron may require the reminder that everyone in this scenario will primarily vote in their best interest, but for the rest of us we just take this for granted. It is also mathematically undeniable that the side with 2/3 representation will win in a landslide and thus other means other than popular vote are needed if we are to also take into account the experience and opinion of the side that lacks representation. Furthermore, this problem is self perpetuating, with players from the 1/3 converting into the 2/3 majority because who would want to play handicapped for long? Thus, over time the side without a grab keeps shrinking and losing representation while the side, which already enjoyed a majority for no other reason but a flawed distribution of the grab-skill by the developer, is getting stronger and stronger due to this initial favoring from the developer that now is difficult to get out unless the developer starts by removing the grabs of at least some classes so to make it 50-50 in terms of who has, it. Unsurprisingly then you would see more people asking for everyone to get a grab (or conversely for no one getting it).

Oh but evidently it does indeed cloud their judgement and renders them partial to how unfair it is for only some classes to have the grab-skill. And the proof of this is simply because none of them can counter any of my initial points on this thread; indeed they have presented far more arguments against my class (oh what a coincidence it's my class) than any argument at all against any of my points. That's how you can see all the partiality going on here.

But I don't take it personally when they attack sorceress, because I know well that it is due to desperation:

• If I played a Dark Knight, they would attack me because I am a Dark Knight that is asking for the grab-skill to be given to everyone.
• if I played a Witch, they would attack me because I am a Witch that is asking for the grab-skill to be given to everyone.
• If I played a Maehwa, they would attack me because I am a Maehwa that is asking for the grab-skill to be given to everyone.
• and so on...

It never really mattered to them what class I play, it is about trying to discredit me instead of my arguments, because I dared to ask for everyone to be given a grab-skill in order to make the playing field more equal.

No matter which class I play, as long as it lacks a grab, their bias comes to full display and get visibly and proportionally represented by the results of the popular vote. That is how you can tell which side is more reasonable and impartial.

But buddy, from the start you decided that you were the only one who can be impartial, with relevant arguments. You listened to no one, ditched our arguments on several topics and kept on rambling. At one point, don't be surprised if people get annoyed by your behavior!

Now, devs, who have stats, who have no horse in this and who won't fall for childish tricks (your words), proposed different solutions about DEFENCES and asked for feedbacks. They didn't make a survey about grabs, THAT is your topic.

Players gave their opinion, and everyone who voted for the second solution was simply blinded by greed? Wow. 

And suddenly devs would become stupid enough to take the feedback into account without any critical thinking? Come on.

And the utmost irony is to see you say that people are trying to discredit you based on your class, when you're doing that with any "detractor" playing a grab class from the start.

You're insulting with devs, with other players, time to stop maybe?

Ps: What makes you think that we didn't tell Lemon our thoughts back then? XD

No one is safe from being partial, not you, not me. One way I like to test against my bias is by presenting my ideas publicly, such as how I have done in this thread, and see if people can come up with valid arguments to discredit them. We are now on page 4 and we have yet to see any objective countering of any of my points which doesn't resort to the old "oh but you play X class" and more importantly, one that withstands scrutiny. If I can debunk it, it doesn't matter if I am partial or not, as long as I address every point and disprove its logic, it is therefore debunked. So far though, not one such argument has been presented against any of my points.

I am sorry but you don't get to say that I have not listened to anyone when I clearly quote, disect, parse, and address each of their points to refute them, point by point. Show me one point I have refuted without giving reason why. Link it right here and tell us the number of my post. I will either proceed to answer it to refute it or recognize its worth. The challenge stands. Link a post  where I have dismissed any argument without properly demonstrating why it was flawed to begin with.

No. This thread is merely to make the developer aware that there is a big partiality problem in relying solely on submitting things to a popularity contest. There may be changes that are objectively better for balance but if it means the majority of players will now have to try harder then guess which option the players will vote for? this problem gets further accentuated when you divide the player population in an unequal proportion as is the current split between 2/3 of the population that have a grab and 1/3 of the population that does not have the grab. Obviously those that have a grab do not want to see anyone on the 1/3 having it even if its objectively more fair and we can further discuss on that point.

And lol just have a look at who starts discrediting whose class first. I reserve the right of counterattack if my class is attacked, but usually it is easier to just point out the obvious, that it is an attempt of derailing and distracting from the main topic since the initiators are incapable of coming up with good counter-arguments or any argument at all for their cause.

My challenge to you still stands, link any argument which I dismissed without debunking first. I have doublechecked in order to make sure one didn't slip my eye but in case one did, I'll proceed to address it ASAP.

and PS: lemon was a hero! :o

Thanks for proving me right so brilliantly...

But you're going full loop since your first topic one year ago, and as I said you only DECIDED that other arguments were wrong. Just check the answers given in the 2 previous topics, they are perfectly reasonable but you ditched them. Job done on our side, we won't endlessly fight with windmills. 

And you want to lock the discussion about defences on grab alone, but with these propositions devs showed to you that they took grabs into consideration. And players are not necessarily playing grabs classes with the same ratio, they're not necessarily playing one class only, and even if they are, you can't deny them the ability to have critical thinking based on that. 

Anyway, we'll see with the next changes! Have fun instead of complaining, that's a game ! ;) 

There is a difference between me deciding if something is wrong, and demonstrating how something is wrong. You seem to think that rejection even when it is accompanied by argument is flawed regardless. You are free to do so, however, you cannot expect to be taken seriously when you do not accompany that with your own counterargument. Most of the opposition to my points I face are so easy to dismiss precisely because they aren't even addressing my points, and are instead mere attempts to derail the topic to something else like the excuse of "oh but you play X class."

As I already told you, I stand by this. Link a any post that raised a valid counterargument to any of my points which I have dismissed without first having gone through its logic before debunking it. If such a post exist I will make sure I don't leave that leaf unturned so that there cannot be any where for doubt to hide behind.

I went into meticulous detail on the first post of this thread as to why classes with grabs are the least negatively affected, and even buffed, by the first two options, not so with the last option, option number three. You are welcome to say why what I said is wrong, that's why I expressed it publicly instead of privately submitting my feedback to the developer; because I think my reasoning is solid and flawless, and proof of that is that no one can come up with a way to debunk it.

But you are right on the topic of players not necessarily playing grab-classes in the same ratio as non-grab classes. The 2/3 vs 1/3 is merely describing class distribution based on grab, not players'. The actual ratio is going to be much higher in pvp for grab-classes due to the inherent undeniable advantage of how much easier it makes life in pvp. We see these ratios in a lot of pvp modes in BDO, be it AOS, RBF, or war; and of course compensating for the usual outlier new class which tends to always be over-tuned.

To conclude this post, I still think option #2 is going to bring a lot of good things to pvp if a lot of SA's are truly replaced with FG; grab classes will still have the joker card, a CC that beats everything and nothing beats it (grab), so they win no matter what with option #2. It is just a pity because with option #3 we could have finally put an end to the win-button problem in bdo; but with Pearl Abyss it is never a done deal. :) I have been thinking of more ideas to submit more forum posts that would expose how grab is unbeatable in the most objective of ways (which for now I'll keep as a surprise!). If I see enough denial and resistance to it, I'll likely find the motivation to do it! :)