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UTC 8 : 47 30. Mai 2024
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Please change the spawn rate for Kvariak (or make it a permanent mob)
19. Apr 2024, 04:54 (UTC)
275 10
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 19. Apr 2024, 04:57 (UTC)
# 1

Family Name: Cillian_Raynor 

Region (NA/EU): NA

Suggestions/Comments: 
I posted about this before a year or two ago but it was in a feedback thread adressing various monsters whose knowledge was incredibly hard to get but he deserves his own thread. I am a S knowledge seeker and any of us, except maybe the very lucky few, will tell you this is a ridiculous mob to try to get to S. It has the same knowledge drop rate as a gatekeeper as far as I can tell. The problem is that you can kill one gatekeeper in 5 minutes nowadays, so that's 12 an hour give or take (with server change and all it's more like 10 really). But you have to spawn Kvariak by killing mobs and I crunched the numbers once and it's about a spawn every 2 hours and 30 minutes in average. Now consider that the last gatekeeper I still have to get to S I have now killed 260 times (that's with all pets leveled, simple cron buff, artefacts buffs, and savage draught). Which means it's possible you need to kill as many Kvariaks to get an S if you're unlucky. Do the math, that's 650 hours. Nobody is doing that ever. 
So you've got a few options. The easiest to implement I guess is to change his spawn rate to... well, I dont know, personally I would say once every 30 mins or so in average. It's not like he drops anything good so that's not OP and that's still a lot worse than killing gatekeepers (2 an hour vs 10). I'm not against the idea of having a couple of mobs that are hard to get to S, but see a spawn every 30 mins means if I go there for 30 mins a day, even if i'm unlucky within a year at most I should have him at S, that's doable. Another solution would be to have the mob be permanently there but as tough as a gatekeeper (early on when drieghan released I know he was tough as one but i think you still needed to spawn him? I didnt do it then). Or do both, like the gatekeepers now who can spawn an easier version if you kill mobs. Either way, this needs to become feasible. Getting the knowledge is, but to S you have to rely on insane luck. 
Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 19. Apr 2024, 04:59 (UTC)
# 2

I tried to separate my post in paragraphs but it's not working!?... sorry for the block of text.

Oh and a solution i forgot is to keep the same spawn rate but increase the chance of getting knowledge (or higher grade) by a lot.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 19. Apr 2024, 09:12 (UTC)
# 3

Why make it so complicated? Knowledge of gatekeepers, Kvariak and Katzvariak should be available from npcs, just like it is, for example, with world bosses.

This problem is not just about them, there is more: Lee Duksoo, Jang Iksoon, Geuseunsae, Mudang Wraith, The Phantom Knight of Bartali III, Incarnation of Corruption, Olun's Silence, Raz'nal, Fallen Ataraxia, Saigord, Ulutuka, Erebjork, Vercedes. All these bosses have no system for grinding their knowledge.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 19. Apr 2024, 17:38 (UTC)
# 4
On: Apr 19, 2024, 09:12 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

Why make it so complicated? Knowledge of gatekeepers, Kvariak and Katzvariak should be available from npcs, just like it is, for example, with world bosses.

This problem is not just about them, there is more: Lee Duksoo, Jang Iksoon, Geuseunsae, Mudang Wraith, The Phantom Knight of Bartali III, Incarnation of Corruption, Olun's Silence, Raz'nal, Fallen Ataraxia, Saigord, Ulutuka, Erebjork, Vercedes. All these bosses have no system for grinding their knowledge.

agree with this one

Kvariak is a bit of a pain.  It's a hidden "drop" boss.  Increase your drop rate to get more spawns.  I've had days where i could get 4 spawns an hour, and others where it's 1 spawn in 3 hours.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 20. Apr 2024, 06:32 (UTC)
# 5
On: Apr 19, 2024, 09:12 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

Why make it so complicated? Knowledge of gatekeepers, Kvariak and Katzvariak should be available from npcs, just like it is, for example, with world bosses.

This problem is not just about them, there is more: Lee Duksoo, Jang Iksoon, Geuseunsae, Mudang Wraith, The Phantom Knight of Bartali III, Incarnation of Corruption, Olun's Silence, Raz'nal, Fallen Ataraxia, Saigord, Ulutuka, Erebjork, Vercedes. All these bosses have no system for grinding their knowledge.

Erebjork and Vercedes are grindable, and seem to have a decently high knowledge chance on kill (Ulutuka is also grindable but seems to have lower chance). For most of these you can kill the boss, if you don't roll S, forfeit the quest and pick it up again. One notable exception to this is Imoogi - you can only get this knowledge as quest reward, not from either killing in the quest nor killing in boss blitz, therefore you have only one chance per char (and after doing many hours of questing).

I don't really agree that knowledge that you can grind should just be obtainable from NPCs. It is fine for there to be some work involved. For world bosses, you have knowledge from NPCs because it can be extremely difficult to get last hit. For bosses that you're soloing anyway, I don't see a need for this.

Kvariak can indeed be A LOT of work. The best strategy I can think of is placing an alt at Kvariak's position, loading all knowledge buffs you possibly can - GM buff, all the rare ones from various events, etc. When you trigger Kvariak, switch to that alt, so you only spend like 30 seconds of the knowledge buffs per Kvariak spawn.

But the hardest knowledge entries of them all are Mutant Troll / Mutant Ogre. You need last hit to have a chance to roll the knowledge. Solo it takes hours per kill and with a group only one can have the last hit. I'd suggest something like what we have for Garmoth now - at least let everyone who participated have a knowledge chance.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 20. Apr 2024, 09:25 (UTC)
# 6

On: Apr 20, 2024, 06:31 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Erebjork and Vercedes are grindable,

No, bosses that have a 0.01% chance of spawning are not a system for grinding their knowledge.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 06:31 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

For most of these you can kill the boss, if you don't roll S, forfeit the quest and pick it up again.

No, it doesn't work like that. Knowledge is obtained as a reward for completing quest. How would you like to forfeit quest that has been completed?

On: Apr 20, 2024, 06:31 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

I don't really agree that knowledge that you can grind should just be obtainable from NPCs.

And I don't agree to masochism just because it suits you.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 06:31 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

It is fine for there to be some work involved.

Deleting knowledge in the library in Calpheon and changing characters dozens of times is irritating enough (not to mention the fact that a topic was created in which players demanded to change this system).

On: Apr 20, 2024, 06:31 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Kvariak can indeed be A LOT of work. The best strategy I can think of is placing an alt at Kvariak's position, loading all knowledge buffs you possibly can - GM buff, all the rare ones from various events, etc. When you trigger Kvariak, switch to that alt, so you only spend like 30 seconds of the knowledge buffs per Kvariak spawn.

No strategy will help you, I use 5 t3 bird pets, glasses, earring, and other bonuses, getting S from Agrakhan required killing him over 100 times in my case. Only that there were daily scrolls to Agrakhan, and the chance that Kvariak will "drop" (because Kvariak  spawn as drop) is below 1%.  On the other hand, I obtained S from Garmoth in the 7th attempt without any knowledge bonuses and without my pets.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 06:31 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Mutant Troll / Mutant Ogre. 

Mutants are practically impossible to kill without 80-120 players and even then fighting them takes 20-30 minutes. Knowledge from these bosses can be obtained from quests, the problem is that these are one-time quests.

Currently it looks like this for me (and I don't intend to gain anything more without making changes I mentioned, i.e. knowledge from npc):

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 20. Apr 2024, 19:35 (UTC)
# 7
On: Apr 20, 2024, 09:21 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

No, bosses that have a 0.01% chance of spawning are not a system for grinding their knowledge.

Vercedes is spawned pretty reliably once per hour, it's not even RNG - it's built that way. Erebjork RNG spawn also averages around 1 per hour, but since it's rng, of course your mileage may vary.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 09:21 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

No, it doesn't work like that. Knowledge is obtained as a reward for completing quest. How would you like to forfeit quest that has been completed?

The quest bosses you mentioned have a chance to give knowledge on kill. A few of them also additionally give it as a quest reward, but that's just a bonus. I've pushed all those quest bosses to S just by forfeiting and reaccepting. Like I said, Imoogi is the only exception (also possibly Lee Duksoo and Jang Iksoon, didn't do quest forfeiting with those).

On: Apr 20, 2024, 09:21 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

And I don't agree to masochism just because it suits you.

Actually grinding the mobs is how the ecology knowledge system was designed to work in the first place. It sounds silly to me that you want it to be common to just get knowledge from NPCs when that was only added as a workaround for rare cases where last hit is difficult to get (group content where there are many players so you are unlikely to get last hit). What they should do instead is make it reasonably fast to get it through actually grinding, not offering workarounds.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 09:21 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

Deleting knowledge in the library in Calpheon and changing characters dozens of times is irritating enough (not to mention the fact that a topic was created in which players demanded to change this system).

Deleting knowledge is indeed janky. That's why I'm saying it should come from grinding, where it can upgrade and you never have to delete. You are even contradicting yourself here - first you want more knowledge from NPCs, and then you complain that deleting knowledge is irritating when that's only necessary because of knowledge coming from NPCs.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 09:21 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

No strategy will help you, I use 5 t3 bird pets, glasses, earring, and other bonuses, getting S from Agrakhan required killing him over 100 times in my case. Only that there were daily scrolls to Agrakhan, and the chance that Kvariak will "drop" (because Kvariak  spawn as drop) is below 1%.  On the other hand, I obtained S from Garmoth in the 7th attempt without any knowledge bonuses and without my pets.

Agrakhan had a 15% base chance to drop knowledge. I suspect your higher grade knowledge bonus was low in that case because the buff drastically changes your chances there. The base chance for S from any source is 1%, but buffs are additive, so T5/T4 pets+lightstones+accessory+meal+savage gives +43%, so with those buffs the S chance is 44%. With the same buffs, the knowledge chance is +207%, which raises the base 15% to ~46% (this time multiplicative, not additive). This leads to around 20% of S per kill. You could also delete knowledge and redo the black spirit quest before, which had guaranteed knowledge drop, so with that the chance would have been 44% for S with these buffs.

I agree that Kvariak is unreasonably hard. That's because, as OP said, spawning it can take a very long time. For example, both Vercedes and Erebjork spawn faster AND have a higher knowledge drop chance, which combined make them trivial compared to Kvariak. With the buffs I mentioned earlier, the chance for S per kill is roughly ~3.4%, which on average would work out to about 20 kills, but if you're not lucky, can take far more. That is why I loaded all special knowledge buffs onto one char that sits at Kvariak - with all those buffs that alt has roughly 6.6% chance for S per kill, which would average around 10 attempts, but I guess I'm not quite lucky yet since I'm past that.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 09:21 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

Mutants are practically impossible to kill without 80-120 players and even then fighting them takes 20-30 minutes. Knowledge from these bosses can be obtained from quests, the problem is that these are one-time quests.

They take a long time, but not that long. I've done them in a group of 6 recently and it took us like 35 minutes per kill. I also know that at least 3 people have got S doing them solo and they've said one kill has taken them like 4 hours (good gear and buffs though). But this is definitely way too hard. Not only are you killing one mob for 4 hours to guarantee a last hit - there are zero grind profits and it's EXTREMELY tedious.

Overall I'd say that the ecology entries that definitely should to be made easier are Mutant Troll, Mutant Ogre, Kvariak and Imoogi. Some of the scroll bosses that were trivial before since you could just spam scrolls may be very difficult now too, which should be looked into.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 21. Apr 2024, 09:09 (UTC)
# 8
On: Apr 20, 2024, 16:48 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Vercedes is spawned pretty reliably once per hour, it's not even RNG - it's built that way. Erebjork RNG spawn also averages around 1 per hour, but since it's rng, of course your mileage may vary.

ROTFL. RNG, maybe one per hour. Are you serious? And this is supposed to be a way to grind knowledge? As I said: I'm not a masochist.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 16:48 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

The quest bosses you mentioned have a chance to give knowledge on kill. A few of them also additionally give it as a quest reward, but that's just a bonus. I've pushed all those quest bosses to S just by forfeiting and reaccepting. Like I said, Imoogi is the only exception (also possibly Lee Duksoo and Jang Iksoon, didn't do quest forfeiting with those).

But it's the ones in Land of the Morning Light that pose the problem. The ones from Odyllita are probably bugged, I killed Saigord dozens of times and didn't get knowledge. Incarnation of Corruption is also killable, but requires quests for bs, if someone has done them will no longer gain knowledge (the only option is alt char).

On: Apr 20, 2024, 16:48 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Deleting knowledge is indeed janky. That's why I'm saying it should come from grinding, where it can upgrade and you never have to delete. You are even contradicting yourself here - first you want more knowledge from NPCs, and then you complain that deleting knowledge is irritating when that's only necessary because of knowledge coming from NPCs.

Do you have any idea about gaining knowledge from bosses? This is exactly how you get S from world bosses: talk to the NPC, change character to the one in the library, delete C, B, A, A+, change character to the NPC, talk to the NPC, gain knowledge.

And this is the only grind I can accept (I can add an exception for main quest bosses: after completing quest, we can spawn this boss in the same place and kill him).

On: Apr 20, 2024, 16:48 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Agrakhan had a 15% base chance to drop knowledge. I suspect your higher grade knowledge bonus was low in that case because the buff drastically changes your chances there. The base chance for S from any source is 1%, but buffs are additive, so T5/T4 pets+lightstones+accessory+meal+savage gives +43%, so with those buffs the S chance is 44%. With the same buffs, the knowledge chance is +207%, which raises the base 15% to ~46% (this time multiplicative, not additive). This leads to around 20% of S per kill. You could also delete knowledge and redo the black spirit quest before, which had guaranteed knowledge drop, so with that the chance would have been 44% for S with these buffs.

ROTFL. Percentages never add up like this, ever!!! If you have +10% to the base 10%, it means that you have 10% + 10% of 10%, i.e. 1%, i.e. a total of 11%.

On: Apr 20, 2024, 16:48 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

They take a long time, but not that long. I've done them in a group of 6 recently and it took us like 35 minutes per kill. I also know that at least 3 people have got S doing them solo and they've said one kill has taken them like 4 hours (good gear and buffs though). But this is definitely way too hard. Not only are you killing one mob for 4 hours to guarantee a last hit - there are zero grind profits and it's EXTREMELY tedious.

I took part in killing mutants, so I know what I'm talking about. There were definitely over 100 players and killing the mutant took about 15-20 minutes. And you say it takes 6 people to do it in 30 minutes, ridiculous.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 21. Apr 2024, 15:57 (UTC)
# 9
On: Apr 21, 2024, 08:42 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

ROTFL. RNG, maybe one per hour. Are you serious? And this is supposed to be a way to grind knowledge? As I said: I'm not a masochist.

They may spawn only once per hour, but their knowledge drop rate is also higher, so it's not that bad. Again, I see it as expected that if you want S for mobs at some spot, it will take some time grinding there. It wasn't designed like Character knowledge where you just go talk to NPCs once and you're done. Completionism in games has always involved some effort. The only problem are outliers that take far longer than everything else.

On: Apr 21, 2024, 08:42 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

But it's the ones in Land of the Morning Light that pose the problem. The ones from Odyllita are probably bugged, I killed Saigord dozens of times and didn't get knowledge. Incarnation of Corruption is also killable, but requires quests for bs, if someone has done them will no longer gain knowledge (the only option is alt char).

Aside from the 3 I mentioned which might be only from quest reward, you can either just forfeit and kill again, or for the bosses that have a blitz, you can just quickly kill C1 version of them in a loop until S. Odyllita quest ones are not bugged - the chance is just low, I pushed all of those to S by just repeating the kill quest, but for some it took like 30+ attempts. I do agree that this might be unreasonable since forfeiting quest feels pretty janky, not an intended thing to do. Also, using another character to do the quest sounds fine to me. It's the same way for main story quest bosses which you can also repeatedly kill using forfeit.

On: Apr 21, 2024, 08:42 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

Do you have any idea about gaining knowledge from bosses? This is exactly how you get S from world bosses: talk to the NPC, change character to the one in the library, delete C, B, A, A+, change character to the NPC, talk to the NPC, gain knowledge.

And this is the only grind I can accept (I can add an exception for main quest bosses: after completing quest, we can spawn this boss in the same place and kill him).

Like I said, that method was added as a workaround because getting last hit on them is not something you can reliably do. NPCs are not the intended way that ecology knowledge was supposed to work. It should not be necessary for solo bosses since you should instead be able to kill them enough times to get the knowledge. So your idea of being able to spawn quest bosses would indeed make sense. For world bosses and mutants, I think they should do it like they recently did with Garmoth - the knowledge drops as a loot item.

On: Apr 21, 2024, 08:42 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

ROTFL. Percentages never add up like this, ever!!! If you have +10% to the base 10%, it means that you have 10% + 10% of 10%, i.e. 1%, i.e. a total of 11%.

I can't even tell which part of my math you think is wrong from this comment. Please point out the specific mistake I did. But first read this: https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Wiki?wikiNo=380

On: Apr 21, 2024, 08:42 (UTC), Written by Senemedar

I took part in killing mutants, so I know what I'm talking about. There were definitely over 100 players and killing the mutant took about 15-20 minutes. And you say it takes 6 people to do it in 30 minutes, ridiculous.

I did this like 2 months ago. I'm not even sure what to say here because I did it - unless you fry my brain to delete my memories, you cannot possibly convince me something I actually experienced is "wrong". I find it hard to believe anyone managed to get a group of 100 for this in 2024, so I suspect your information is outdated, and/or those people were not geared and buffed.

Zeitpunkt der letzten Änderungen : 21. Apr 2024, 19:56 (UTC)
# 10
On: Apr 21, 2024, 15:57 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

They may spawn only once per hour, but their knowledge drop rate is also higher, so it's not that bad. Again, I see it as expected that if you want S for mobs at some spot, it will take some time grinding there.

We're talking about bosses, not mobs. Grinding knowledge from mobs is a natural process. Although there are anomalies here too, because in the case of some "objects" (e.g. towers, etc.), gaining knowledge from them is much more problematic than from mobs, although they have the same percentage of chance.

On: Apr 21, 2024, 15:57 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Odyllita quest ones are not bugged - the chance is just low, I pushed all of those to S by just repeating the kill quest, but for some it took like 30+ attempts.

I've definitely killed Saigord over 30 times. The lack of any knowledge of it is therefore unnatural.

On: Apr 21, 2024, 15:57 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

Two issues:

1. The most important thing is still the chance of knowledge and even in the link you provided, the chance counts as I wrote, e.g. +50% to the knowledge chance from a mob that has a 40% knowledge chance, i.e.: 40% + 20% (50% from 40%) = 60%. The average mob has a 2.5% - 5% chance, so even if we have a 100% knowledge bonus, it only gives us a 5% - 10% chance for knowledge.

2. In the case of a chance for higher knowledge, it is different, ok, I didn't know that the percentage is added there, but you should pay attention to one thing: what is the importance of this parameter since the next knowledge from killing a mob or a boss will always be higher than the one we have. In practice, whether we get C or S at the start is not that important, because after C we always get B or higher. Of course, by getting S first, we save time.

On: Apr 21, 2024, 15:57 (UTC), Written by felmagnac

I did this like 2 months ago. 

And this is where our different opinions come from. You did it 2 months ago and I did it 2 years ago. During this time, the effectiveness of our statistics has increased so much that they allow us to break through the completely unrealistic statistics of mutants.

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