MAIN WEAPON

The Good: 

1. Some of the new animations look nice 

2. Void Lighting 

3. Air lightning 

4. Heilang: Scratch 

5. Flash: Pole Thrust

6. Flash: Stance Shift

7. Sharpening Claws - The increased magical ap is good. The reduced enemy ap is bad because this skill is used in a combo and it makes no sense why you would want to reduce the enemy's ap when you're comboing them. SUGGESTION: Remove the reduce enemy ap and add back the bleed.

8. Heilang: Surging Tide

9. Heilang: Roaring 

The Bad:

1. Heilang: Throat-Burn - This skill can't be canceled and locks you in the animation. The new animation will ruin the soaring arts tamer playstyle. SUGGESTION: Make it so that the skill can be canceled if the animation is not changed. Or better yet, revert the animation to the old animation while keeping the forward guard. Make it so that this skill can be used from awakening from the hotbar. 

2. Heilang's damage - Make it so Heilang's damage scale of Tamer's ap

3. Tree Climb - Remove collison on this skill please 

The Joke:

1. Evasive Attack - Why is this skill still in the game? It uses a lot of stamina, has no protection, does no damage, has no utility, and does not flow with any combos. No one ever use this skill and PA wasted resources working on it. Worse of all, the changes to it did not make it useable at all. To make this skill worth using, give it protection and cc so that it can be used as a quick catch to get behind people's frontal guard. Make it superarmor and give it a stiffen on hit.

2. Fortune's Blessing - Change this passive please or at least buff it. 

Succession

I don't play succession so I can't contribute much

1. If PA wants to focus on riding Heilang for combat, make it so that Heilang will take a portion of the damage recieved or increase the damage of the attacks. Otherwise this will never be used realisticly because Tamer will take too much damage while not doing enough damage.

2. Reduce the stamina that's used while riding Heilang   

3. Succ Tamer needs a way to do protected damage. She did not get that in this reboot. 

Awakening

The Good:

1. Beast Rampage - The aoe size increase was good but not enough. Increase the aoe size to the point where if you downsmash someone, you can still hit them after. The current aoe size of Beast Rampage is still small enough to where if you downsmash someone, it will knock them out of hit range.

2. Flow: Intimidation - The aoe size increase was good but still not big enough. Increase it by 10% more

3. Garuda

4. Flow: Ascension

5. Flow: Full Moon

6. Flow: Soaring Strike

7.  Legendary Beast Dance 

8. Echo Pierce

The Bad:

1. Cloud Stomping, Flow: Cloud Ride - Combining the flow for this skill with Cloud Stomping was good. However, this did not solve the issue that many Tamers had with this skill. You can get vaccumed out of this skill and you will do the fall animation when you're not even that high off the ground. SUGGESTION: Keep the first part of this skill as a super armor. Make the second part of this skill an iframe. If PA thinks that this is too op. Make the second part iframe at first so that it can't be vaccumed. Then switch it back to SA. Also please fix the falling animation on this skill. 

2. Moonlight Strike - The movement distance increase is not noticeable at all. Increase the movement distance. 

3. Allround Spinner - The attack range increase of this skill is not noticeable at all. Increase the aoe more.

4. Celestial Slam - This skill has no protection and locks you in place. SUGGESTION: Add superarmor or frontal guard to the skill. Make it so that you can cancel the animation. 

The Joke:

There are no joke changes for awakening :) 

Is this thread gonna be deleted like the other one?

The last time when the good part was the animations it was on succ release and look where we are ... 

Vacuums are cancer for this game and I don't know why they keep releasing classes with vacuums, its like that since sorc vacuum ball then Mystic 100% ult vacuum that didn't get released here in EU

Tamer was iframe class, with remove of the some of the iframes its paper class, they even removed the evasion buff for both succ and awak ... that's the rework

They are way too careful with Tamer I want this kind of attitude with other classes especially with new "cancers"

For example, i want all AOE to be like the Tamer one that will for sure be good for the game no more Guardian level of retardness AOE adn DMG

and btw Tamer still dont have sticky thread for the changes ...

someone can tell me why my thread about Tamer rework  was deleted? so low ....  You can also delete Tamer from game cause Ithink PA just don't give a sh*t about her ...  :/

It was probably deleted because there was nothing constructive to say about the reboot. Pretty much the entire thread was comprised of people complaining with nothing to add about what was good/bad about the reboot nor was there anything about how to fix it. 

Frankly, the whole thread kinda just made tamer mains look like a bunch of toxic crybabies so I'm not particularly mad that it got deleted. Sure many people aren't particularly happy about the reboot, but there are far better ways to express that. 

Honestly it could've been much worse and the only thing I absolutely believe should not have been done was change throat burn's animation. Far too much effort has been put into creating and perfecting soaring arts for it to be thrown away. 

edits:

- my mistake, soaring strike from hotbar can be cancelled by the usual awakening skills. point about using from pre-awake remains.

- my mistake, I was unclear about reasons for increasing beast rampage AoE.

- 

I agree completely with the post by Captillion above. There is only so much that can be done/undone by the PA dev team after all the time that was put into improving not just Tamer but all the other classes. They have more work on the very ambitious Heidel Ball roadmap, so say your piece - but bear in mind that PA own these forums and it is their perrogative to just ignore us and go work on another class if our feedback is unhelpful or not actionable.

Actionable Feedback on the Tamer Rework
Overall I am very pleased with the direction that was taken, and want to thank the team members responsible for having the guts to give us a ranged void trap and do a good job improving Heilang's behaviour overall.  Quality of Life fixes e.g. Cloud Ride into Cloud Stomp and putting Flow: Soaring Strike on hotbar and 9s cooldown are excellent, thank you. Mounted combat is well received, providing a new dimension of skill and discovery to the class which I support strongly. My specific issues and suggested solutions after testing for some hours:

* Flow: Burning Sky is an absolutely great name that Cuchullain came up with, in Soaring Arts discord.

Soaring "nerfed" by Throat Burn animation, jump was removed.

The fulfilling hard work and knowledge sharing that went into Tamers developing this niche playstyle was heavily impacted by the new animation of Throat Burn. Tamers who enjoy this playstyle feel negatively towards the rework as a whole despite being excited about other changes like new Heilang behaviour because of the Throat Burn animation alone, without regard to the new skill effects which are appreciated.

I have never heard a high level player of Tamer or any other class express their belief that the Soaring Arts style is overpowered, and most believe it is less effective than ignoring these techniques altogether to focus on standard play. Hence, I see no reason to diminish the efforts made by tamer mains who enjoy the flashy and difficult art of "soaring". If the removal was intentional in this regard, please provide closure to the hard working Soaring Tamers and detail the reasons we have been "grounded", so that we can pursue new directions for feedback and exploration.

ACTION ITEM - add Flow: Burning Sky* to Throat Burn skill tree, does the old animation when airborne.

If reverting the animation entirely poses problems to the added forward guard or other skill effects, then consider adding a flow/side skill to Throat Burn tree just like Air Lightning that would behave differently when off the ground, specifically doing the original animation. Alternatively, please explain why this would be infeasible so we can pursue a new direction for feedback and addressing this concern.

Flow: Full Moon "nerfed" by new animation, no acceleration.

More applicable to general gameplay and a majority of experienced Tamer players, is the "nerf" of the accelerated Intimidation -> Legendary Beast's Power -> Moonlight Strike -> Flow: Full Moon  sequence which requires very precise input, but rewards the Tamer with a small additional DPS in certain situations. There is a depth to using this sequence in PvE, where management of cooldowns is a primary concern and the precise use of Flow: Full Moon on monsters provides an opportunity to marginally increase grind speed by carefully placing it after awakening skills with a Float effect. Because it does not do a large amount of additional damage, sometimes it is suboptimal to use it ahead of other skills. On a class that struggles to obtain higher trash numbers, this is a consolation. The feeling of applying this "trick" is one of accomplishment, as it requires practice to "lock in" to the exact timings and become skilled enough at the timings to use them in combat, under effect of slow and attack speed buffs, etc.

Please allow us to retain this minor advantage in PvP and PvE, a badge of accomplishment as a tamer main to understand and apply in different situations, by reverting the Flow: Full Moon animation. While the changes to Flow: Full Moon are welcome overall, the loss of this deeper mechanic of the Tamer class leaves a sour taste. If the change was intentional, please provide some detail as to why so that we can pursue a new direction.

Celestial Slam should be protected and cancelled normally.

Together with the "accel" issue above, the simplest way might be to revert Flow: Full Moon to the original animation and provide in the skill effects of Celestial Slam (which Tamers already use wherever possible before Beast Rampage to get the 15% accuracy buff):
1. Superarmor, and/or;
2. Forward Guard, and;

3. Cancelled by the usual skills (Legendary Beast's Power, Leaves, Bolt, Intimidation from Hotbar etc.)

Remove the stiffness effect in exchange. Thus, we would be granted the protected smooth engage into Beast's Rampage that was intended by the Flow: Full Moon change, without sacrificing a satisfying element of Tamer's depth as a class of high skill ceiling and control. It struck all tamers I know of as odd that the skill Celestial Slam could not be cancelled when it was introduced, although we appreciated the intent of the +15% buff before Beast Rampage.

All Around Spinner no longer applies stiffness when used after Moonlight Strike.

Legitimizing the stiffness effect applied by All Around Spinner when used after Moonlight Strike on live servers, especially because All Around Spinner can be cancelled in a multitude of ways unlike Celestial Slam, would allow the protections to be applied and the stiffness to be removed from Celestial Slam without granting an additional protected CC effect to the Tamer they do not already posess on live, and fitting better with the way Tamers employ the damage of Celestial Slam -> Beast Rampage.

Flow: Soaring Strike cannot be used from pre-awakening stance

The intent of the T3 skill addons for Flow: Soaring Strike being made viable is a very good QoL change. However, in line with the changes to deploying awakening skills like Gust, Leaves, and Cloud Stomping from pre-awakening stance more easily and eliminating the need for cancels to achieve the same ends, have Flow: Soaring Strike from hotbar apply in all the same situations as Flow: Intimidation currently does on live servers instead of forcing us to use the various cancels access it in a more roundabout way like cancellng Flow: Intimidation immediately with Rain Curtain and Legendary Beast's Power. As a general comment, in lieu of this and any change that appears too powerful or difficult, an explanation would be welcome and met with constructive feedback.

Passive: Fortune's Blessing should be improved.

Two unique aspects emblematic of Tamer and in keeping with the depth and prestige of Black Desert Online as the MMO with the best combat and most depth to combat, are control of the Heilang pet and mounted Heilang combat just introduced, and the Soaring Arts which are a display of the mastery required to play Tamer and exceed limitations, though not considered overpowered tactically. I suggest the following benefits be added to Passive: Fortune's Blessing   across eight tiers at levels [30, 40, 50, 56, 60, 61, 62, 63]:

1. Split the passive into mutliple levels, similar to the Accuracy Passive, with the final level being reached at Lvl 62 or Lvl 63.
2. Increase +HP to    [+50, +100, +150, +200, +250, +300, +350, +375] at the different levels.

3. Add the effect of [+15, +25, +35, +45, +50, +55, +65, +70] jump height to benefit mounted Heilang, Cloud Stomping, and the soaring arts.
4. Add the effect of [+10%, +25%, +35%, +45%, +55%, +65%, +70%, +75%] of Bonus AP from brackets to Heilang attacks.

I believe these changes will make all Tamers very happy, and cross the HP already granted succesion over to Awakening to help our block, which is the skill-based way Tamers can remain alive while weaving among high damage, large AoE skills of newer and ranged classes to attempt to make plays. While scaling may need to be rethought, in general Tamers have always desired to have the Pet's attack power scale based on player Attack Power. I believe this is a good way to address that community desire, provide survivability in larger fights, and accentuate the unique and beatiful elements of the Tamer.

"Always Locked" Skills Remain Unchanged, specifically Stretch Kick and Flurry of Kicks

While Flow: Tree Bound does have a utility in cancelling Tree Climb on collision, a skill-based play, it's inputs conflict with too many other useful skill inputs. Likewise for Stretch Kick. As a proposal, allow Stretch Kick to be the skill effect used in Flow: Tree Bound, providing an alternative (unprotected) crowd control option besides Flow: Spray Scratch which is a protected CC option. The new Flow: Tree Bound allowing cancel into Stretch Kick would be useful as a very wiley way to "fake out" knowledgeable enemies who would usually associate the animation with a failed grab attempt on a target currently in iframe, as the current skill used to cancel out of Tree Climb into grab is Air Lightning and the animation enemies see in this case of attempted grab out of the Tree Climb + Air Lightning cancel on an opponent in iframe is that of Stretch Kick. Hence, I do not feel this is adding a significant amount of power, only outplay and skill ceiling to Tamer while preserving the Air Lightning cooldown for it's new intended use to debuff enemies and cast the pet flow of Void Lightning at specific locations while on the move.

With respect to Throat Burn, consider changing the skill Flurry of Kicks to be the target for the new skill animation and effect of Throat Burn, make it only useable from hotbar to prevent key input conflicts, and make it able to be cancelled in the usual ways instead of how current Celestial Slam is, locking the player into the animation. Two birds with one stone, perhaps.

Cloud Stomping and Flow: Cloud Ride merged skill, is heavily affected by hit stutter and vacuum.

A comment better/more experienced tamers than myself agree on, that I agree with as well, is that the Flow: Cloud Ride portion of the skill should be an iframe to account for the hit stutter and vacuum effects largely nullifying the intended use of the skill as a disengage whose primary opening is at the start of Cloud Stomping.

A personal opinion on the matter, while I believe the start of the skill Cloud Stomping should be punishable - the first few frames should be an iframe with the bulk of the "pole vault" animation being superarmor. Specifically, from when the tamer hits the input for Cloud Stomping and until they begin to lift their body into the air using the staff as leverage, would be iframe. Then, as the tamer begins the "pole vault" animation and until its peak, would be superarmor. Then, if the Flow: Cloud Ride right mouse button input is held, the movement from the end of the "pole vault" to landing is iframe. Leave a gap in the landing, in the usual place where Trample  is used to cancel into Legendary Beast's Power  or Moonlight Strike  is used directly. With precise timing this will allow the Tamer to disengage without the falling animation and hit effects causing the skill to fail and weapons to be put away, but still allow other classes to dash in and grab the tamer out of superarmor when they see the "pole vault" animation. I believe this will provide a missing ingredient to tamer's effectiveness in group fights and represents a utility rather than a power increase to the class.

AS THE REST OF MY LIST IS SELF-EXPLANATORY,

let me take this closing sentence to thank the PA Development Team, the Art Team, and all who have worked on the improvements to the game over the past year, and in addition to that taken on the hard work of rebalancing and reinvigorating the PvP balance and class mechanics in BDO, a game with an enormous variety in classes and playstyles. You are appreciated more than you know, respect!

Open To All Criticism and Flaming, BRING IT HOMIES.

- Gunrocks

Domo, great job summarizing the first week of "reworks". I agree with all of your points. I think the Devs missed the mark in addressing (their own) proposed changes to the class. I think many of the changes seem to be poorly thought out or incomplete, I can only hope there is more coming that we have yet to see. I also fear since the Tamer population is so small (one of the least popular classes), that our voices will be drowned out by the vocal majority of non-tamer players who do not fully understand the class' capabilities and limitations (and frustrations).

I personally do not use Soaring Arts routinely, but I have always been very envious of those that do. I hope PA chooses to address the above-mentioned changes to that playstyle, so that it may continue and thrive.

Gunrocks, thank you for posting this! This is an incredibly well-written, succinct, and reasonable list of suggestions for future changes. I sincerely hope that some of these points are directly addressed by the Devs in the coming weeks (or better yet, reflected as actual changes to the class).

-Poncho

I only play Awakening Tamer so I don't have many suggestions for pre or succ skills honestly. I do however suggest making her awakening AoE's quite a bit larger at the very least & instead of removing the meager 6% evasion buff from the already hard to pull off ability Flow: Cloud Ride (which leaves you open to grab and burst even though you're flying through the air rapidly lol). Adding a meaningful 10% evasion to Cloud Stomping upon cast would make far more sense for the type of ability that it's supposed to be & possibly changing Flow: Cloud Ride to an iframe as that ability is only really good for one thing. Repositioning & fast movement. Moving on to Leaves Dropping & the preceding Flow: Gust you would think those would also increase movement speed % much like other far more powerful classes & their dash/avoid abilities? Also a much needed fix for those two abilites Leaves Dropping & Flow: Gust so they don't have such a strange/awkward gap in between their iframes that she gets cc'd out of. It should be a nice long smooth iframe so that if the player so chooses to use both of those abilities simultaniously to reposition they don't end up being punish for using their only two abilites that're supposed to be designed for those type of sticky situations. That ability & it's coresponding flow are supposed to be for avoiding damage & repositioning during fights but instead she gets cc'd out of Leaves Dropping due to either the slow follow up cast of it's Flow: Gust or some strange desync situation far too often which really takes away from it's reliability & frankly ruins the fun of the class since those unique movement skills should be used in avoiding incoming attacks either with her literal polevault (Cloud Stomping), or long distance side steps (Leaves Dropping) but instead far too often leave her open or making her a sitting duck. There are plenty of classes that are much heavier in the iframe department that literally go invisible while iframing where as Tamer does not and her only awakening iframes are completely visible and easy to catch with cc's. So not only is she not at all a defensible character but she also lacks the range of classes new & old that are currently far more popular. My suggestions might only scratch the surface in most peoples eyes however I believe these are the most significant problems that plague the Tamer in its current Awakening form. I do hope Pearl Abyss seriously considers implementing far more meaningful changes as this class is unique & can be very fun for those who decided to stick with it. Oh also! I'll be the only Tamer main to probably think this but who on earth even cares about the Tamers weird looking dog thing like why even buff the useless doggo? Lol for anyone who actually gave this a read thanks I appreciate it, cheers!

The only thing I would disagree on is to revert Throat Burn's animation, it's a really short animation for a frontal guard. If anything, what Gunrocks said is the best option, make it a flow the same as air lightning.

I would also add that our protected dmg hasn't changed at all with this first patch, which aside beast rampage is really underwhelming compared to most fo the other classes for the short range ours have. Allround spinner and resonance need a dmg buff.

I would like to add the issue tamer will have with mobility when all reboots are on live... almost all other classes got a massive buff to movement (warrior, striker, valk and even sorc) can move up the entire arena in a matter of seconds. It is going to be extremely difficult to chase people down or try flying if you are at low hp. 

It would be nice to help tamer with an attack speed buff, so the ww iframe animation becomes faster, or giving more range to moonlight or the awk iframe.

I also believe the main issue people have with awakening is that if you downsmash someone they get out of BR's AoE, what is really annoying, specially if you are playing in a laggy server such as LAS or you have dsync issues.

Good point - I agree. It looks like we're going to be on the slower side at the end of all this. Some of the suggestions in the feedback channel Nano setup on Tamer discord have highlighted the movement discussion, and made the point that Legendary Beast's Claw and Flash would be good targets to remove CC effects from and increase movement distance/add SA in exchange. Closing some/all of the gap at start of claw, and/or make it turnable like succ moonlight, then for flash increase the lunge distance, Pole Thrust distance, and Stance Shift pull back distance and add directional control and a gap around SA of Pole Thrust but leave the other two skills full SA and not turnable so there is a timing/skill shot element to the movement would be really cool.

We have to exploit terrain, traps, and tactical group play to keep up - which isnt the worst tbf. Still, clearly there was an attempt to buff our movement by "enough" with the the range increase on moonlight strike and cd reduction to 9s on cloud ride - but these in no way feel impacful in my testing. I looked at jump height as a decent buff to movement via ride distance, heilang, and soaring as a niche style all at once in the Passive: Fortune's Blessing as one step, but I like the idea of just making Flash tree and Beast Claw rabam movement skills not filler dmg/CC skills no one ever, ever uses as a catch in a serious way.

I edited my post to clarify the Beast Rampage thing, too.