This is my feedback on the great Tamer murder of 2021.

Grabs:

Tamer more than any other other than maybe lahn relies on grab the most. This is not because we have some sick long-range grab or protected grab even, it's because it's the only fast cc we have. This grab only gets used in 1v1, because outside of that it's likely just suicide. Compare this to classes with protected grabs who can use their grabs in all kinds of situations, I think it's fair to say that a lot of grabs were too strong.

Now, why nerf cooldown of ALL grabs instead of targeting the ones that are an issue. Do you think Zerk cares that you nerfed his grab CD when he has several different grabs to choose from? If it doesn't even address the grabs of one of the most busted grab classes in the game then what is even the intention of this allround nerf. Ninja barely relies on grab at all other than in some matchups, and even they still have two grabs to use so the CD increase doesn't bother them.

Grab is central to tamers gameplay and we don't even get the protected SA on successful grabs because our grab animation is long and cancelled by a different skill (unprotected). Now, obviously PA probably don't even know this, shocker. The result is gonna be that all grabs are SA on success other than tamer. This can be fixed by giving boltjolt SA, seeing as it's a non-cc skill with very low damage that is simply only used for cancelling stuff, but this also removes some small gaps from our gameplay. I think gaps are healthy, so it would be better to maybe just give a 1-2 second lingering SA on our grab startup, so we get enough SA to cover the grab animation itself.

In general though, I feel like the cooldowns for grabs should just be based on how good the grab is. Lahn grab is insane so it should have a significantly longer cooldown than most. No grabs should be protected on fail. I also don't see why a class should have several grabs to choose from.

Tamer will be stuck with 1 single grab, 15 sec cd, unprotected on fail and mostly on success. Now, this might be fine if our kit other than grab was good, but tamer kit is literally just completely shaped around our grab. (I'm not asking for more grabs, just that I think other classes should also only have ONE grab)

Scratch:

Our probably second best catch of an enemy is Scratch. It's a kinda slow skill, but it has SA and is good to get a stiff on people behind their Frontal-Guards.

They removed the cc and made it PvE only without putting it in the patch notes even so goodbye to that. Not much more to say here. We honestly just need this back, no ea why they removed this.

Tree Climb:

If you don't PvP much you might have run into a tamer standing still in the fight while being iframe. This was a very core part of tamers ability to play around cooldowns and also positioning aggressively without being blown up.

Tree climb in itself is a very suicidal skill. As it is now before the rework, if it hits any form of hitbox at all, it will go into a long unprotected kickback skill that is likely to just get us killed. It can be cancelled in a kinda roundabout way if you prepare for it before hitting anything, but even this is likely to get us cc'd.

This skill being so risky to use and easily countered if you know the matchup is what made it balanced to begin with. I feel like people that fight tamer genuinely have no ea how often this skill gets us killed, not to mention it has a gap on the startup too. Using it was just still better than not using it despite its suicidal tendencies. In the rework they made it so now the suicidal part of it is not there anymore, but instead the lingering iframe is just a fraction of what it used to be. This is just a straight up nerf to people that actually bother practicing their and the flow of pvp in general. Knowing where to aim your tree climb in order to not hit anyone is something that required knowledge of the flow of matchups. For example, vs a sorc the best place to aim it was often right towards the sorc, because you know the sorc is either gonna iframe to one of your ses or behind you, so the other angles are usually more risky than straight forward.

Anyway, this tool is pretty much just dead after rework. Nothing more than a fancy WW

Beast Rampage: (BR)

Our only real damage skill nowadays is Beast Rampage. We used to have other stuff, but throughout the years their dmg has just been lost. Some skills lost their damage in the class vs class dmg modifiers.

Beast Rampage is an unprotected skill with bound and down attacks, and by far our hardest hitting skill. When they made it very clear they intended for this to be our main damage skill we also completely lost the freedom of using our core-skills (BON). We have to invest our BON into a frontal-guard on BR or else it's pretty much useless, and so will our damage be.

A solution here would be to give Beast Rampage it's own frontal-guard that it kinda should have had all along. This leaves us with a BON to use elsewhere and we can then invest it into skills that make us less reliant on grab.

An example of this is we can now for example use stiff on Moonlight, which gives us a fast dash with stiff on it, an aggressive cc. Grab was our only other aggressive cc. Scratch, void, fearful trembling are most of our other ccs and they are all very defensive as they all have a delay.

I used to play with moonlight stiff and can say that it gives Tamer a lot of new depth in our pvp that ISN'T grab-reliant. It can be compared to Murderous Intent that ninja has.

In the rework they also look like they're buffing dmg and self-buffs of Legendary Beast Dance. The issue is that it's useless without SA, and since our BON is invested into Beast Rampage pretty much by default, there's no real option to use LBD.

Moonlight is a severely bugged skill:

Our dash Moonlight is a dash that is meant to have an SA that lingers a bit and including the dash it probably has a total SA time of around 2.5 seconds. However, the entire skill is bugged from several years ago when the skill worked differently. In its current state it feels more like several parts that have been stitched together, so you now end up getting randomly cc'd on impact with hitboxes because the SA for some reason has a gap where it should have a gap. Even after its hit, it should have a full second at the very least of lingering SA.

I believe this is a bug from back in the day when the dash itself was protected, but the hit-part of it was not. Now they don't chain together properly and we just end up getting cc'd in the mdle of it constantly.

Conclusion:

Doesn't matter what your opinion is on tamer, but Tamer's only strength was in 1v1, and in other forms of PvP it's a joke. Because most of it's cc is defensive it is literally easier for me to do 1v3 than it is to do 3v3. If I'm in a 1v2 situation I regularly have to reject help because once they the enemies don't focus me anymore I have to go to them to try to cc them with my delayed cc's, or I can go suicide mode and grab and hope the other enemies are asleep.

Tamer is a very grabbable , so I understand the threat of grabs, but the issue has been that there are several OP grabs that just go unpunished because they are either ranged, or protected. Tamer dn't have either of those advantages, and grabbing is very much a do or die situation for us.

Even without the nerfs of today (12th of November), the fact that other classes that are very much desired in almost all kinds of PvP are getting massive buffs is already an indirect nerf to Tamer to begin with. On EU I can pretty much count on one hand the actually active PvP tamers that play the game at this point. The literally was just barely hanging on to begin with, and then the already busted classes are getting buffs on top of it, and then for some reason I wake up to a complete gutting of the tamer kit.

PA has never, since the release of tamer along with the game in 2016, understood what this even does. Every time they even voiced an interest in buffing Tamer, every tamerplayer would be scared as hell because what PA consers a buff, was most of the time a nerf in reality. They keep buffing skills we don't even use for obvious reason. They focus most of our rework on buffing PET-RIDING PVP (?????), and then nerf our normal kit to balance that out?

For the few remaining tamers that PvP on EU, the consensus is that this is not just the last "nail in the coffin". It's more like digging up the coffin you buried 4 years ago only to grind up the contents and use as fertilizer.

Some tamers will reroll, but knowing how dedicated most tamer players are this is just gonna make most of them quit. It's scary when you can't trust the company in charge of everything to make any positive change to your ever.

Oh well, who wants to play with a zerk valk wiz meta anyway.

~Zun

Tamer has been dominating 1v1s for too long, it deserved nerfs 100%.

Dont worry you will still have the advantage in most matchups, just others will have a chance now.

'why nerf cooldown of ALL grabs instead of targeting the ones that are an issue?': If they wanted to make everyone less reliant on grab, sure but then some classes need other tools, Tamer is one of those classes for sure. Removing CCs from Scratch and (not mentioned in previous post) Surging Tide seems like an odd way to make Tamer more versatile. Surging Tide may have become a viable CC due to the overall Knockback changes (making it count for 0.7 on the CC timer). Regardless, these changes are still just additional points of pain overshadows by the fact we're forced to take Core: Beast Rampage which guarantees a particular playstyle and reduces versatility to almost none.

'A solution here would be to give Beast Rampage it's own frontal-guard that it kinda should have had all along.' Similar to the change where Ninja had his Core skill's CC and protection swapped, making Core: Beast Rampage the CC with the base skill having FG seems to me like a reasonable change which would fix this whilst also giving the option for the same effects as current Live.

A further comment I would have on Moonlight Strike is that in Awakening the dash distance/speed seems low, at least when you compare it to the increasing mobility creep in other classes. In the past maybe Tamer was considered a 'fast' class but nowadays they are unable to catch almost every class who simply just wants to run away. Maybe this would benefit from a QoL buff similar to the change done to Leaves Dropping in the past?

Our Evasion skill, specifically WW, is very linear in its movement. You have to stop to change direction or use Legendary Beast Power, one thing which would give Tamer defensive versatility outside of skills is the ability to change direction each WW enabling the player to create irregular iframe-based movement patterns similar to other classes such as Sorceress or Kunoichi/Ninja.

E buff. We gain some DP, Movement Speed and Resistance: But what is the purpose of it? The stats provided are far too low for us to benefit from due to our low base DP. Resistance is a cheese-y stat and should really just be avoided entirely (ignore-resistance on the other hand is much more useful). The only thing which doesn't feel out of place is the movement speed, but otherwise feels too similar to Valkyrie's E buff which is another class with a completely different identity. I don't think the E buff fits with Tamer conceptually nor does it really help us in practice, I personally use it only for the movement speed.

Okay? But that's literally all tamer can do. If someone plays a class that is great for large scale pvp and can ALSO challenge me in 1v1, when that's my only area of strength don't you think this is a bit weird?

Obviously the fix is to make Tamer better in other areas than just 1v1, but they're doing none of that. In fact they're nerfing it so far.

You're a wiz player. Wizards are way more useful than Tamer in all kinds of PvP that isn't 1v1. If you're the wizard called "Jaedar", I remember you saying you focus mainly on 1v1, which is pretty strange as a wizard, but even in 1v1 your class can put up a fight. 1v1 is your least suitable form of PvP and your class is still not bad at it, just not good. That's a much better position to be in than the position of tamer atm, and frankly a lot of other classes too. 

You're a fish fighting a monkey in a tree, and you complain about losing more than you win.

you can literally spam i frame and use your pet to do a low risk stun..... try playing a class that cant do any of that

I can assure you that there are classes that are even more reliant on grab than tamer, that nevertheless got shafted even harder by having their cd increased by 115% (that's 2.15 times longer) while having practically no other good tools to catch opponents, trade damage or do anything else useful.

Grabless classes like yours are going to come the strongest out of this, if it continues the same way, so maybe you should chill.

The iframe is Partial.
2, dont blame the Pet blame the class you're against. Its in the kit, what do you want DK's to do? not use their Confetti and crayons to do dmg???
lastly, you seem to have so much passion for a class that not even regarded in high teir node and seige content, nor is she even meta, or desirable in guilds. Your argument is completely misplaced.

"Spam iframe", we're not sorcs. WW iframe is a jump that is iframe while in the air and unprotected on the ground. It has a gap on both the start and the end of the animation. Meaning that when you stack WWs, or "spam iframes" as you say, you have huge gaps that are easily punishable. Good tamers are minimizing their use of WW as much as humanly possible. 

WW is also direction-locked. You can make turns in an angle of about 100 degress in front of you, but you can't aim it any direction you want. This makes our movement more linear and less likely to surprise a lot. An example of es that benefit a lot from movement that is the opposite of this is sorc and ninja. They can iframe in whichever direction they want from where they're standing or facing, or running.

Our low risk pet stun, the 40 sec cooldown ranged stiff is not better than any other fast ranged cc. The fact that it relies on our dog AI complying with our targeting (he will usually default to jumping on whoever recently dealt dmg to you instead of who you're targeting), makes it very unreliable on top of its long cooldown. This skill is very much a "hope for a lucky catch" because you never know how the dog will interact with this skill. 

It's a pretty good skill, but as someone who PvPs a lot, this is a skill I'd be very willing to give up in favor of other stuff.

Why is that suddenly a problem when the kit of the class is provided to excell 1v1?
Wizard and witches have done the same but with large scale, and the actual solution to that was to create Mystic and Striker.

And yet, you say that the class deserves nerfs? The hypocracy, the mmo Black Desert online is known for its pvp, and within the content of pvp there is no better or higher apex than the group content. GVG, nodewars, and Seige all encapsulate the pvp scene as a whole. And it is the MAIN scene that MAJORTY of pvpers partake in. And its been dominated by your class and beyond for over 5 years.


And you want to say, Nerf the lolicon Tamer. Do see the hypocracy? Do you realize why the game is CURRENTLY in the state its in. 23 classes....But 100% Tamer deserves the Nerf?


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These people play large scale classes, do mostly only PvE, and then get furious when they lose to tamer in a duel for spot, even though the tamer also probably has 20x the pvp experience in 1v1 compared to most of these classes.