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UTC 12 : 49 May 19, 2024
CEST 14 : 49 May 19, 2024
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Developers, how do you keep justifying mouse move induced visual desync?
Mar 26, 2022, 15:27 (UTC)
2580 20
Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 00:02 (UTC)
# 11
On: Mar 26, 2022, 16:48 (UTC), Written by Catastigma

it has already been discussed for the past 6 years.

It's physical limitations that cause these desyncs. Fiber cannot give to everyone 1 ms latency. Removing mouse movement will do absolutely nothing except downgrade the gameplay.


As long as not everyone has 1ms latency and servers have 1000 ticks rate. Perfection will not exist.

Even FPS have massive Desync and 99.99% of them compensates with lag compensation. Which is a even higher straight up cheating.
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation
you can find a thousand of others derived of Lag compensation that are often even more atrocious and retarded.

it is quite obvious who uses what and what casuses these issues so removal would solve alot of these problems on its own.

how are people so selfish to defend broken stuff when removal of it would in long term mean better game.

100 1800
Lv 66
Seeryus
Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 00:58 (UTC)
# 12
On: Mar 27, 2022, 00:02 (UTC), Written by Seeryus

it is quite obvious who uses what and what casuses these issues so removal would solve alot of these problems on its own.

how are people so selfish to defend broken stuff when removal of it would in long term mean better game.

How are people so selfish to try to change a game that their hate when there could simply go somewhere else, it would in long term and short term be better for the game....

thier already removed Mouse movement in KR/Global lab and it's made a massive backlash in NA/EU. 3 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdI05pPmhLg
https://streamable.com/chub3

and the result is, don't touch it. don't even dare.

Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 00:54 (UTC)
# 13

You guys talk just like my husband, I would show him this thread but then I would end up staring at his whiteboard again.  Is that what you want people? Is that what you want?!  LOL

Well I really don't blame you, I am the one who married one geek and gave birth to two more neckbeards.  I don't know anything about mouse desync, but playing online games taught me plenty about latency (lag and rubberbanding) in online 3D video games.  In short, hanging out with all you nerds has me growing a neckbeard too.  I wrote this paper on game lag for another game, seems like an old friend of mine by now...

Latency, Network, and Server Issues

There are 3 separate issues that can cause somewhat similar bad experience, and people often mistake those and call them all lag.

Frame Rate
This one is personal and mostly irrelevant, lower the settings or get a better computer and you are doing fine. It is an issue on the consoles where you can't do either, both the hardware and the settings are more or less immutable. This cause is extremely easy to confirm or handle, yet often mistaken for lag in when a lot of elements involved or graphic effects, like smoke, fire, and other effects. Other non-graphical factors like logs can bring even a good computer it's knees and the effect is the same, similar to lag/rubberbanding, but it's not. The client requires a certain amount of memory (RAM) for processing visual effects and calculating formulas.

Lag
Latency, also known as lag, is the time and delay between client-server requests, usually measured in milliseconds (0.001 second).

Many games have a performance monitor to display the ping and packet information. The quality of the user's Internet connection as reported by the ping times to the game server, with high latency the player should expect various issues with delays between taking an action and seeing the result on the screen.  The modern games use Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and not User Datagram Protocol (UDP) for data transfer, this has it's advantages, but in terms of the 'lag' experience it has plenty of disadvantages. One of these disadvantages is server load - obviously the more things that happen, the more information the server / client inform each other, that creates more packets and more chance for packet loss, and lag. The assumption is the game doesn't send a separate packet per action, but as usual in any game the stream (TCP) is per server update.

Probable Causes for Latency
The typical latency of an Internet connection also varies depending on its type. Type could consist of any or all of the following; fiber optic, coaxial cable, phone lines (DSL), or satellite (wireless). Even with an Internet Service Provider (ISP) promising high speed fiber optics, they cannot control other ISPs they communicate through to reach the final destination. Most issues, in this area, have no quick fixes nor can they be controlled by the user or host company.

1. Spikes in Internet utilization during peak usage times of day often cause lag.
2. Weather and other wireless interference, fixed wireless broadband, and other wireless Internet connections are particularly susceptible to signal interference from inclement weather conditions.
3. Personal hardware such as an overloaded modem or router within the owners home. While modern computers are sufficiently powerful in most situations, they can slow down significantly, if too many applications are running simultaneously.

Server Load
Also known as the server "tick rate". This is the most important factor, and the cause of most network issues. When people activate powers, or load into instances. For example; the client sends "Activate Spell X", the server needs to verify it's not on cool down, because the server shouldn't trust client data (this is done to avoid exploits and cheats), then calculate the distance of every mob in a given distance from the user. If the mob is in the distance, apply all the effects and the chain of effects (e.g. debuffs, skills, life steal) or everything that can be triggered.

This happens per mob, per skill, per player, and grows exponentially the more elements there are in that vicinity. This has nothing to do with the network or client computer, it has only to do with the server hardware, code optimization/complexity and input length or iterations. These calculation are done also in 'frames', it can't flow continuous, players send their action, the server calculates changes, sends results to the players about their current state.

Somewhat simplified:
1. player/s sends action/s
2. server calculates effects
3. server sends new state to all players.

This calculation is done many times per second, usually to create a smooth experience for players it's done at least 30 times per second, and better yet, 60 times per second and higher.

Now imagine there is a power that triggers a second power that triggers another power, and all done by 40 players, while you hold the move forward key;

1. player/s sends action/s - a lot of players, so we have several actions in the same "window"
2. server calculates effects - a lot of actions cause a lot of cascading effects, lets assume this takes half second.
3. server sends new state to all players - The issue comes here, your client renders things, but the server now updates you a change that took half second (500 milliseconds) to calculate, eternity in terms of frame rate, and the same as playing at 2 FPS. While there is no lag, and you have top-notch computer that can render every effect at maximum quality at 100 FPS, you just rubberband like crazy back in time.

Class dismissed.  

Have fun!

Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 01:01 (UTC)
# 14
On: Mar 27, 2022, 00:36 (UTC), Written by Catastigma

How are people so selfish to try to change a game that their hate when there could simply go somewhere else, it would in long term and short term be better for the game....

thier already removed Mouse movement in KR/Global lab and it's made a massive backlash in NA/EU. 3 years ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdI05pPmhLg
https://streamable.com/chub3

and the result is, don't touch it. don't even dare.

they should remove it, it is understandable that classes that profit and cheese from it are against it.

100 1800
Lv 66
Seeryus
Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 01:03 (UTC)
# 15
On: Mar 27, 2022, 00:54 (UTC), Written by LooneyYellowBear

You guys talk just like my husband, I would show him this thread but then I would end up staring at his whiteboard again.  Is that what you want people? Is that what you want?!  LOL

Well I really don't blame you, I am the one who married one geek and gave birth to two more neckbeards.  I don't know anything about mouse desync, but playing online games taught me plenty about latency (lag and rubberbanding) in online 3D video games.  In short, hanging out with all you nerds has me growing a neckbeard too.  I wrote this paper on game lag for another game, seems like an old friend of mine by now...

Latency, Network, and Server Issues

There are 3 separate issues that can cause somewhat similar bad experience, and people often mistake those and call them all lag.

Frame Rate
This one is personal and mostly irrelevant, lower the settings or get a better computer and you are doing fine. It is an issue on the consoles where you can't do either, both the hardware and the settings are more or less immutable. This cause is extremely easy to confirm or handle, yet often mistaken for lag in when a lot of elements involved or graphic effects, like smoke, fire, and other effects. Other non-graphical factors like logs can bring even a good computer it's knees and the effect is the same, similar to lag/rubberbanding, but it's not. The client requires a certain amount of memory (RAM) for processing visual effects and calculating formulas.

Lag
Latency, also known as lag, is the time and delay between client-server requests, usually measured in milliseconds (0.001 second).

Many games have a performance monitor to display the ping and packet information. The quality of the user's Internet connection as reported by the ping times to the game server, with high latency the player should expect various issues with delays between taking an action and seeing the result on the screen.  The modern games use Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and not User Datagram Protocol (UDP) for data transfer, this has it's advantages, but in terms of the 'lag' experience it has plenty of disadvantages. One of these disadvantages is server load - obviously the more things that happen, the more information the server / client inform each other, that creates more packets and more chance for packet loss, and lag. The assumption is the game doesn't send a separate packet per action, but as usual in any game the stream (TCP) is per server update.

Probable Causes for Latency
The typical latency of an Internet connection also varies depending on its type. Type could consist of any or all of the following; fiber optic, coaxial cable, phone lines (DSL), or satellite (wireless). Even with an Internet Service Provider (ISP) promising high speed fiber optics, they cannot control other ISPs they communicate through to reach the final destination. Most issues, in this area, have no quick fixes nor can they be controlled by the user or host company.

1. Spikes in Internet utilization during peak usage times of day often cause lag.
2. Weather and other wireless interference, fixed wireless broadband, and other wireless Internet connections are particularly susceptible to signal interference from inclement weather conditions.
3. Personal hardware such as an overloaded modem or router within the owners home. While modern computers are sufficiently powerful in most situations, they can slow down significantly, if too many applications are running simultaneously.

Server Load
Also known as the server "tick rate". This is the most important factor, and the cause of most network issues. When people activate powers, or load into instances. For example; the client sends "Activate Spell X", the server needs to verify it's not on cool down, because the server shouldn't trust client data (this is done to avoid exploits and cheats), then calculate the distance of every mob in a given distance from the user. If the mob is in the distance, apply all the effects and the chain of effects (e.g. debuffs, skills, life steal) or everything that can be triggered.

This happens per mob, per skill, per player, and grows exponentially the more elements there are in that vicinity. This has nothing to do with the network or client computer, it has only to do with the server hardware, code optimization/complexity and input length or iterations. These calculation are done also in 'frames', it can't flow continuous, players send their action, the server calculates changes, sends results to the players about their current state.

Somewhat simplified:
1. player/s sends action/s
2. server calculates effects
3. server sends new state to all players.

This calculation is done many times per second, usually to create a smooth experience for players it's done at least 30 times per second, and better yet, 60 times per second and higher.

Now imagine there is a power that triggers a second power that triggers another power, and all done by 40 players, while you hold the move forward key;

1. player/s sends action/s - a lot of players, so we have several actions in the same "window"
2. server calculates effects - a lot of actions cause a lot of cascading effects, lets assume this takes half second.
3. server sends new state to all players - The issue comes here, your client renders things, but the server now updates you a change that took half second (500 milliseconds) to calculate, eternity in terms of frame rate, and the same as playing at 2 FPS. While there is no lag, and you have top-notch computer that can render every effect at maximum quality at 100 FPS, you just rubberband like crazy back in time.

Class dismissed.  

Have fun!

except the obvious visual indicators that game goes to crap land when someone mosuemoves skills and u cant see them proeprly on the screen.

100 1800
Lv 66
Seeryus
Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 12:39 (UTC)
# 16
On: Mar 27, 2022, 00:54 (UTC), Written by LooneyYellowBear

You guys talk just like my husband, I would show him this thread but then I would end up staring at his whiteboard again.  Is that what you want people? Is that what you want?!  LOL

Well I really don't blame you, I am the one who married one geek and gave birth to two more neckbeards.  I don't know anything about mouse desync, but playing online games taught me plenty about latency (lag and rubberbanding) in online 3D video games.  In short, hanging out with all you nerds has me growing a neckbeard too.  I wrote this paper on game lag for another game, seems like an old friend of mine by now...

Latency, Network, and Server Issues

There are 3 separate issues that can cause somewhat similar bad experience, and people often mistake those and call them all lag.

Frame Rate
This one is personal and mostly irrelevant, lower the settings or get a better computer and you are doing fine. It is an issue on the consoles where you can't do either, both the hardware and the settings are more or less immutable. This cause is extremely easy to confirm or handle, yet often mistaken for lag in when a lot of elements involved or graphic effects, like smoke, fire, and other effects. Other non-graphical factors like logs can bring even a good computer it's knees and the effect is the same, similar to lag/rubberbanding, but it's not. The client requires a certain amount of memory (RAM) for processing visual effects and calculating formulas.

Lag
Latency, also known as lag, is the time and delay between client-server requests, usually measured in milliseconds (0.001 second).

Many games have a performance monitor to display the ping and packet information. The quality of the user's Internet connection as reported by the ping times to the game server, with high latency the player should expect various issues with delays between taking an action and seeing the result on the screen.  The modern games use Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) and not User Datagram Protocol (UDP) for data transfer, this has it's advantages, but in terms of the 'lag' experience it has plenty of disadvantages. One of these disadvantages is server load - obviously the more things that happen, the more information the server / client inform each other, that creates more packets and more chance for packet loss, and lag. The assumption is the game doesn't send a separate packet per action, but as usual in any game the stream (TCP) is per server update.

Probable Causes for Latency
The typical latency of an Internet connection also varies depending on its type. Type could consist of any or all of the following; fiber optic, coaxial cable, phone lines (DSL), or satellite (wireless). Even with an Internet Service Provider (ISP) promising high speed fiber optics, they cannot control other ISPs they communicate through to reach the final destination. Most issues, in this area, have no quick fixes nor can they be controlled by the user or host company.

1. Spikes in Internet utilization during peak usage times of day often cause lag.
2. Weather and other wireless interference, fixed wireless broadband, and other wireless Internet connections are particularly susceptible to signal interference from inclement weather conditions.
3. Personal hardware such as an overloaded modem or router within the owners home. While modern computers are sufficiently powerful in most situations, they can slow down significantly, if too many applications are running simultaneously.

Server Load
Also known as the server "tick rate". This is the most important factor, and the cause of most network issues. When people activate powers, or load into instances. For example; the client sends "Activate Spell X", the server needs to verify it's not on cool down, because the server shouldn't trust client data (this is done to avoid exploits and cheats), then calculate the distance of every mob in a given distance from the user. If the mob is in the distance, apply all the effects and the chain of effects (e.g. debuffs, skills, life steal) or everything that can be triggered.

This happens per mob, per skill, per player, and grows exponentially the more elements there are in that vicinity. This has nothing to do with the network or client computer, it has only to do with the server hardware, code optimization/complexity and input length or iterations. These calculation are done also in 'frames', it can't flow continuous, players send their action, the server calculates changes, sends results to the players about their current state.

Somewhat simplified:
1. player/s sends action/s
2. server calculates effects
3. server sends new state to all players.

This calculation is done many times per second, usually to create a smooth experience for players it's done at least 30 times per second, and better yet, 60 times per second and higher.

Now imagine there is a power that triggers a second power that triggers another power, and all done by 40 players, while you hold the move forward key;

1. player/s sends action/s - a lot of players, so we have several actions in the same "window"
2. server calculates effects - a lot of actions cause a lot of cascading effects, lets assume this takes half second.
3. server sends new state to all players - The issue comes here, your client renders things, but the server now updates you a change that took half second (500 milliseconds) to calculate, eternity in terms of frame rate, and the same as playing at 2 FPS. While there is no lag, and you have top-notch computer that can render every effect at maximum quality at 100 FPS, you just rubberband like crazy back in time.

Class dismissed.  

Have fun!

The amount of miss conceptions and flaws in this is so damn high lol. Why you waste your time to write a wall fo text when you don't know the subject you're talking?

244 4634
Lv 62
Hnnie
Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 14:36 (UTC)
# 17
On: Mar 27, 2022, 12:39 (UTC), Written by CatDK

The amount of miss conceptions and flaws in this is so damn high lol. Why you waste your time to write a wall fo text when you don't know the subject you're talking?

Her husband does this for a living. I do it for a living as well. Not sure where the misconception is here but do you do this for a living?

Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 15:39 (UTC)
# 18
On: Mar 27, 2022, 14:36 (UTC), Written by Tooshaitopost

Her husband does this for a living. I do it for a living as well. Not sure where the misconception is here but do you do this for a living?

My friend's husband have a neighbor, and his dog also does this for a living, does it makes me an expert in this field? (rhetorical question)

There are multiple flaws in what he wrote. I ain't gonna list it, but just a pro tip: every decently designed multiplayer game uses UDP to transfer combat update between the server and clients. That ain't even related to game development, you simply need to understand what the two does and how.

(In fact a game server(s) usually do have multiple connections to each client, and uses both TCP and UDP ports to communicate with, depending on the purpose of the said connection.)

244 4634
Lv 62
Hnnie
Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 16:46 (UTC)
# 19
On: Mar 26, 2022, 16:48 (UTC), Written by Catastigma

it has already been discussed for the past 6 years.

It's physical limitations that cause these desyncs. Fiber cannot give to everyone 1 ms latency. Removing mouse movement will do absolutely nothing except downgrade the gameplay.


As long as not everyone has 1ms latency and servers have 1000 ticks rate. Perfection will not exist.

Even FPS have massive Desync and 99.99% of them compensates with lag compensation. Which is a even higher straight up cheating.
https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Lag_compensation
you can find a thousand of others derived of Lag compensation that are often even more atrocious and retarded.

   ^lol.  What a load of nonsense.  
  Desync is NOT lag.  Let's clarify that 1st.  The OP said DEsync.  It's very playable, a networked game at 200ms... if EVERYONE is 200ms.  thn there is no DEsync while LAG becomes superfluous.  The fact that over time BDO has become less SYNChronized shows this game was designed factoring synchronization as a commodity.    Why else would something like "Exit Lag" etc even retain any relevance.  Think back to the beginning when we had only small spats of desync that EVERY1 felt simultaneously{there was literally a top-tier Guild name this).  Then it disappeared and the game ran mint.   Rinse and repeat.  Now, in 2022, the game is completely misaligned constantly.  The OP's talking about synchronization not delays.  --"rely on your eyes to play the game".--

Last Edit : Mar 27, 2022, 17:33 (UTC)
# 20

Gotta be real here, i played over 10 diff MMOs and bdo, tera and cabal (1) had one of the worst dsyncs I have ever witnessed.

BDO ain't the youngest and at this points I (we) just have to accept this issue is left buried for a reason. As I know the devs (by their actions), they are not capable to fix this issue and that's ok, this game is probably a stepping stone for many.

I just accept that it will never improve just like awe witch so I just abandoned pvp and rerolled to lahn :/

43 1679
Lv 61
Adonaj
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