I think most players - across all games - fall into a sweet spot of being semi-casual. This isn't speaking for everyone - almost 30 years ago I had a friend who was absolutely convinced that a final weapon orb for the Mana Sword could glitch-drop in the Mana Fortress (the final dungeon of Secret of Mana), and spent hundreds of hours trying to make it happen. And obsessive gameplay like that is a definite niche across all genres. But, certainly, it's a minority group that plays that way - not everyone needs brain-surgeon-level finesse when mere competence will suffice. And achieving some modicum of balance between those two polar extremes of gamer is one of the chief challenges facing most designers.

But grasping that doesn't mean I understand BDO's approach to resolving this conundrum - by making some classes finger-pretzel factories, and others absolute facerollers. Especially when the payoff for playing both types well is nearly equal.

Like, take Valkyrie. Both her succession and awakening are widely regarded as complex (I would describe her as outright frustrating, but I don't speak for everyone). Yet the class isn't anywhere near S-tier for PvE or PvP. Can it compete? Sure! But it's obviously not the best.

Now compare that to something like succ Corsair, or succ Tamer. Both are total sleepwalkers, featuring extremely basic key rotations, high I-frame windows, good movement. And, when played well, they're every bit as competitive as Valk.

And that's what I don't get. To me - and this is, again, just me - every class should attempt to be:

A) Equally user-friendly, providing 'entry-level' satisfaction for players of all stripes.

B) Equally difficult to master, so that if you want to squeeze that highest 5 percent in performance out, it's there for you. And finally...

C) Fairly even in terms of performance-level, so that the payoff for facerolling on one class doesn't wind up being equal to someone who is blitzing their guts out mastering another.

But that isn't what BDO has done. Rather, you wind up with classes that are finger-breakers; that are 'all work and no play' (yet which often don't perform at higher levels even when played well), and others that a trained housecat could probably get by with.

And that's... well, kind of silly. Because it really locks more casual gamers out of playing (or enjoying) a significant number of classes in the game, AND, simultaneously, punishes the most talented players when they master a challenging class only to get meme-bombed by someone's art's alt that they only log into 'for the lulz.'

I just don't understand this design theory at all.

Valk is a very, very competent grinder. One of the best Orcs grinders, the top money spot right now. Tamer is much, much higher APM than Succ Corsair in PvP. If a "talented" player gets wrecked by "someone who logs in for the lulz", then they haven't mastered the class, have they? I've beaten and have been wrecked by every class in this game - gear, skill and matchup knowledge combined make up if a player can compete or not, not if a class is easy or hard to play lol.

This has to be the most carebear post I've read in a while. Want a high APM finger breaker? Play Awakening Sorc and try grinding for 3+ hours non-stop and feel your left pinky finger start to fall off. Want to hold one button down while you get high trash loot? Play Awakening Striker and hold the F key all day (exaggerated to make a point). The tagging system makes it so a player can enjoy whatever playstyle they want - try-hard, pepega, or in-between - and this solves your issue.

That being said, from my personal perspective, mastering a "difficult" class is very rewarding. The satisfaction that comes with mastering a class that's considered more difficult gives a great feeling. And tagging a low APM class is a nice respite. I cannot think of a single game with fast action combat that has characters that meet your criteria. Even Smash Bros have characters with varying difficulty to play with that game's easy button layout. League of Legends too and there's only 4 buttons for abilities. Variety is the spice of life. If a player truly wanted to master a "difficult" class, they'll put in the effort. No need to punish those who put in the time already to cater.

No need to punish players who enjoy different playstyles, APM, style of play, or difficulty just 'cause the carebears can't or are not willing to hang. IMO, you'll be hurting more players than you benefit, especially veterans. Lots of BDO players, esp those who take the game seriously, have played for years and do so in part due to the variance in class diversity. Why punish loyal players?

Besides, overall class balance is already a big issue, no room to be thinking of APM or difficulty of play in a game that featured a wide variety of playstyles since day 1. Sounds like more of a "get good" issue to me than anything else.

That was a very, very sad flex. I'd encourage you to recognize your profound emotional issues and seek assistance, but we both know you won't.

Nothing is hard in BDO. Only time consuming. Often just for the sake of being time consuming.  If you are playing BDO you have to be ok with that. It is very understandable if you aren't. Especially if spending that time gets you nowhere of value.

As a fan of Secret of Mana, I want to know why your friend thought there was a hidden orb in the Mana Fortress? It wasn't even a palace. :D

Flex?  Take it how you will, I suppose lol.  You obviously took offense to that, being it was the only thing you responded to and instantaneously fired shots to soothe your ego.  Projection much?

Your entire post is asking for every class to have an equal level of difficulty in playing and an equal effectiveness in use.  Not only is that an unreasonably ridiculous request to think it's actually feasible (highlighted by my evidence of other, more mechanically simple games also featuring varying degrees of difficulty in mastering characters, how many classes are already developed - this request would require a total overhaul of all the classes from the ground up, etc.), but just screams in falsetto that you play a "difficult to master" class (Succ Ranger, I presume?) and got wrecked by an "easy to play" class that your class should counter with proper gear, mechanics, and matchup knowledge (Awakened Guardian, I presume?).  That's why this sounds more like a git gud issue more than anything else, TBH.  There's a lot of games with simpler, more braindead, mechanics than BDO out there, suggest you find them.  Try WoW, for instance.

The old european saying sais: "Rome wasn't built for a day".

In the game even the easiest class requires a bit of time to figure out how it's played. Some have easy way of playstyle. Others have more complex. One class is good at a specific role, while not-so-good or bad at another. Another is also good at different specific role, while not-so-good or bad at a different one e.t.c. Different playstyles makes classes unique and different from the rest and this makes them interesting. Difficulty is based on their skill design and complexity and in what situations they can be used.

I personally don't understand what the crying is about. If you wanted all classes to be "ez mode", you'll have to redesign completely and literally all of them. And nobody is going to ever bother doing that specifically for your personal tastes.

yea having every class at the same difficulty and same learning curve just isn't a feasible and even if its possible its very questionable whether its a good thing or not. current class balance issues aside it would be really hard to make a game with engaging classes that are unique while also taking into mind difficulty and learning curve

"It's a marathon, not a sprint."

3 hours ? I need a rest after 45 min at murrowaks x) far is the time whence we could just spin to win... Which feels great tbh
I love the way awake my sorc needs my investment and technic as much as my awake Lhan does not.

If all class played the same the game would be boring and there's no way other player like meself would have continued playing since launch day