I still dotn know what u guys do all day to get rando attacked and forced into pvp so often that it becomes an issue?

You start playing BDO that its not hiding that it has open world pvp. Why play a game where this is possible, if you dislike it so much? Its like playing a shooter and not liking guns. Its just part of the game.

No one likes the behaviour we are talking about. You describe all the ways you run away from it. So the question is why are you here? Meaning why are you in this thread defending indefensible supposedly rare acts you have developed multiple ways of avoiding?

I do not often see many players in a grind. That does not mean someone like you who has to switch channels and so on is a noob who stumbles into trouble. It means our experience is different. People who get attacked are not unsavvy players. They are not doing anything wrong.

Calling the behaviour we are talking about PVP is an insult to anyone who can actually play. There is no competition. There is barely anything that can be called combat. It is burning down comparative low gears for two seconds of malicious amusement. It is making people feel bad because that makes you feel good. That's all. Other games have extensive grinding and gathering that does not enable griefing and PVP that does not invite crafter smashing. What we are talking about is an avoidable bug not a necessary feature.

One problem seems to be some choose to view crafter smashing as normal and three players in the same grind area as outrageous behaviour that invites retribution. That mindset is enabled by the gear gap and the players who are cowards gear troll. Taking away that advantage so that for a while they are the rabbit is an obvious way to cure them of that habit. The scheme I describe above does that and forces them to do a part of the pvx that they don't enjoy to finish the treatment. Turnabout is fair play.

You literally describe having to leave the space you have, as a normal thing you do, and then talk about staying out of people's space. I do not know if you enjoy being a victim or just want to talk others into that but sharing should mean you don't have to schedule your play around other players. You share the environment. The fact is there are already servers for griefers and servers where players respect each other. They just rotate. Otherwise you would have nowhere to run.

That said, I did not describe a PVE server. I described a situation where rando attackers would have their play style switched to one they do not enjoy by force as punishment for doing that to someone else.

In any case you would presumably not be on any official PVE server because you think things are fine as they are. Neither would dedicated PVP players or player monsters. If most players like things like this as you and others claim to believe PVE servers would be almost empty. So efficiency would be wonderful. And no having to hide in the bushes when the big kids come. But you would not be there so what do you care?

As a reminder, page 5. 

No one likes the behaviour we are talking about. You describe all the ways you run away from it. So the question is why are you here? Meaning why are you in this thread defending indefensible supposedly rare acts you have developed multiple ways of avoiding?

No is defending "toxic" PK.  What people are "defending" is upholding BDO's PvX game design.  Said game design, mind you, has been specified by the devs as how BDO is envisioned to be.  NOTE:  "Toxic" PK is not designed into the game -- to be clear, PvX and freedom of choice are.  "Toxic" PK being a natural byproduct of it, as well as more friendly engagments, diplomacy, and the forming of alliances or peace with others.

I do not often see many players in a grind. That does not mean someone like you who has to switch channels and so on is a noob who stumbles into trouble. It means our experience is different. People who get attacked are not unsavvy players. They are not doing anything wrong.

This cannot be proven objectively, this is a subjective statement.  When I can think of numerous occasions when I've been grinding a spot, alone, for an extended period of time, and having people ignore me completely and start grinding on top of me.  You can bring anecdotal evidence, so can I.  Anecdotes do not bring us closer to any sembalnce of clarity on this subject because it turns into a bunch of "he said, she said".

Calling the behaviour we are talking about PVP is an insult to anyone who can actually play. There is no competition. There is barely anything that can be called combat. It is burning down comparative low gears for two seconds of malicious amusement. It is making people feel bad because that makes you feel good. That's all. Other games have extensive grinding and gathering that does not enable griefing and PVP that does not invite crafter smashing. What we are talking about is an avoidable bug not a necessary feature.

PVP = Player vs Player.  PK = Player Kill(ing).  "PVP" and "PK" are NOT synonymous, and this is something the devs have spoken about.  See post #59 in this thread, I listed a BUNCH of dev quotes, with links, with them SPECIFICALLY talking about game design and PVP vs PK.   Sadalsuud is not defending PK, instead, he is defending "PVP".  Know the difference.  See post #59 for reference here:  https://www.naeu.playblackdesert.com/en-US/Forum/ForumTopic/Detail?_topicNo=26049&_page=6

One problem seems to be some choose to view crafter smashing as normal and three players in the same grind area as outrageous behaviour that invites retribution. That mindset is enabled by the gear gap and the players who are cowards gear troll. Taking away that advantage so that for a while they are the rabbit is an obvious way to cure them of that habit. The scheme I describe above does that and forces them to do a part of the pvx that they don't enjoy to finish the treatment. Turnabout is fair play.

Three players in the same grind area is fine --> IF the players agree to it.  But most grind spots are desinged to be solo grinded -- nerfed drops, silver, and EXP are evidence of that.  Grind spots are literally resources (silver, EXP, rare drops, etc.) and are limited (there aren't unlimited grind spots / rotations).  Limited resources = competition over said resources.  This is competitonl, literally, when players fight over grind spots.  This is common logic and something that can be seen outside of BDO as well.  Competition is naturally occuring.  Though, keep in mind, there are numerous ways to avoid this competition, IE: Grind in less contested areas - there are many viable grind spots, Home Channels to swap to, grind areas having multiple rotations.  Use these to avoid conflict.

You literally describe having to leave the space you have, as a normal thing you do, and then talk about staying out of people's space. I do not know if you enjoy being a victim or just want to talk others into that but sharing should mean you don't have to schedule your play around other players. You share the environment. The fact is there are already servers for griefers and servers where players respect each other. They just rotate. Otherwise you would have nowhere to run.

If a player is grinding, minding their own business, and a PKer comes along and kills them it is the PKer who is at the disadvantage.  You lose nothing for dying in PVP, instead, the PKer loses Karma.  With enough Karma lost, they are punished by becoming red and must then face consequences for it.  Biggest one being able to be killed by anyone else with guaranteed cystal loss and possible item degradation -- imagine degrading a PEN Blackstar to TET...that is over 120 BILLION silver loss!  If a player is PK'd they lose nothing significant, the most significant being Elixers, which are cheap and readily available on the Central MP, some seconds or a minute off their loot scroll, which are given for free and in abundance.

That said, I did not describe a PVE server. I described a situation where rando attackers would have their play style switched to one they do not enjoy by force as punishment for doing that to someone else.

I agree that punishment for toxic PK can be expanded upon.  The red system is far from perfect and I firmly believe there is always room for improvement in almost everything in life, including BDO.

In any case you would presumably not be on any official PVE server because you think things are fine as they are. Neither would dedicated PVP players or player monsters. If most players like things like this as you and others claim to believe PVE servers would be almost empty. So efficiency would be wonderful. And no having to hide in the bushes when the big kids come. But you would not be there so what do you care?

We would care because this separates the playerbase even more than we are separated currently.  With Marni's Realm, Elvia separated from normal servers, Home Channels, and a reduced channel swap CD to others, our playerbase is already reasonably separated from each other.  BDO is an MMOROPG -- first and foremost -- and a split playerbase is just stupid for an MMORPG.  This shouldn't even need to be explained.

Nevermind the speculations of which server would be more crowded or not.  Fact of the matter is -- PVE servers and normal, PVX servers being in existance would sever our already split playerbase even more, making BDO even more single-player than it currently is, and will destroy any semblance of an actual MMORPG is -- and that is -- a Massively Multiplatyer Role Playing Game.

If people want to take on the role of "the bad guy" -- so be it -- BDO is an (MMO) Role Playing Game.  There are consequences for this playstyle.  If players want to be the innocent, anti-PVP, PVE-er, so be it -- there are many ways to do this.

One thing I love about BDO is the ability to choose our playstyle to a great degree, define our persona in-game, and work on our goals, alongside others -- be they friend or foe.  There are consequences for bad behavior, like toxic PK, and while they may be able to be improved upon, a full-on PVE server is NOT the answer, as it sacrifices so many important things from this game that make BDO the MMORPG it is today.

Griefing by cowards who do not have the skill or the will to face equally geared real PVP players is not PVP. It is not part of any PVP policy. Your quote expresses this well even if you and others choose to ignore it.

However, as you suggested, there are circumstances where you get hindered by other players while you are doing life-skill content, such as horse training. Regarding this, we will think about ways to alleviate such inconveniences.

Every time someone switches channels away from this behaviour they are assuming theres is a space where it is not happening and choosing to be there instead. It is not a question of if dedicated servers should exist. It is if the reality people are experiencing should be made official. Every jump, every reduction of time because of what is being excused as acceptable is a vote that says it is not, In deeds. Not just words.

I discussed PVE servers because the person I was talking to mentioned them. The scheme I like is to confiscate that top gear as the most effective punishment and make griefers experience what they do, force other players to play in a way they do not want to,  as the fairest penalty. There is no system to try to get around. Either they do the quests or fetch the items or they do not get the gear back. And in the meantime they live in the environment they created without the gear to protect them from the consequences. That can solve the problem.

Having said that this is a feedback space and players will discuss PVE servers and anything else they think of. It is excellent feedback actually to know people are that frustrated. It helps set a starting point to generate ideas. And just like a PVE server it does not hurt you in any way.

Unless you post that quote so often you sprain your wrist. So. No need to insist.

there already is a punishment, it's called karma you might have heard of it because you can't kill someone that griefs more than 3 times because of it. pa already have their stance regarding this expressed in a prior ball as well.

also feedback is cool, off topic discussion is not cool and either you are talking about pve/no pvp servers or you're not