I know my system isn't perfect, but it does not allow that person to continue to grief someone free or repurcussion.

We have to agree to disagree. Throughout this conversation, you have continued to ignore the player who is already grinding, and gets his route stolen by a gearless/protected/guildless player with no recourse. The current system allows one person to stay for absolutely no penalty, even if they are interrupting someone else's grind. This happens A LOT. I don't know how else to explain it, you're only seeing the person flagging as a griefer. The reality is you can be griefed into negative karma.

I just want you to see it from that perspective for a moment.

Imagine you are grinding. I want your route. To take your route, I am now farming mobs in the opposite direction in your rotation. You have buffs like agris coins and old moon scrolls running. Because I just got there, I have nothing running. I am not in a guild. What can you do to me to get me out of your route? Well, you can kill me to dissuade me from doing this. So now you've killed me. To retaliate against you defending yourself, I self res, remove all of my gear, and stand next to you when you kill the next pack of mobs. You've now taken a massive karma blast. If you do this again, you are red and must leave or I will put all of my gear back on and kill you and break all your crystals.

Your options now are that you can mob feed me, or you can leave. That's it.

Both of these are awful solutions if you're trying to defend yourself and your grind! It's not very fair. My system resolves this extremely common form of griefing and karma bombing. The current system punishes the defender. My proposed system does not. It does make it so yes, players can actively fight for spots once every hour per server against a single player if you have full karma. That's a lot of conditions to meet, but also, it's acceptable to fight for resources. That's the nature of MMO's in general.

Anyway, I just want you to empathize with this scenario I explained above man. That's the root of this problem.

This is a tough subject for me. Generally speaking, I am a PvE/Lfieskiller only. I do not activlye seek out PvP and most days do everything I can to avoid it, however I do recognize that this is both a PvP and a PvE/Lifeskill game and both aspects should be equally respected. 

If someone wants to remain 49 forever and never be bothered by PvP. That is their right. However, these same sub-50s should not be able to grant any form of buffs or heals to those who are actively engaged in PvP.

If someone wants to be 100% a griefer on land or the ocean, that is also their right, however they should be willing to accept the consequences that come of it.  

Then there are the rest of the players in this game who want to do a bit of everything. For those who are willing to fight to defend or take something, there should be a way for them to know the consequences of flagging on another player (ie: potential Karma loss) regardless of the reason. Some games I have played have had a system that visually indicates the risk in attacking another player which would also translate into the punishment for defeating that player. This allowed the PvP'er to know what risk they were taking in attacking the other person in regards to chance of victory and potential pitfalls. A system such as this would help flagged players know when they were attacking someone who either has a very low gear score or is intending to karma bomb them and would give them the knowledge to help them in determining if this is a fight/risk they are willing to take. 

That said, I disagree with gear downgrades as a punishment. It is currently fairly easy to go red in a group grind spot when competing for limited resources (especially for AoE classes) and this punishment is excessive for doing something that is permitted by the game. I'd prefer to see an enhanced jail, stat reductions, or some other penalty that makes the player consistently weaker with each loss of Karma than a punishment that can cost them billions in funds and potentially weeks of effort. The punishment does not fit the so-called crime.  I know some will say one group or the other could server swap and this is true, but it is also true that there are only 36 servers (not including Olvia, Arsha or Season) that thousands of players have to choose from so competition is bound to happen, especially during peak play hours. 

In a perfect world, courtesy and manners would always rule the actions of every person, but be it the real world or the MMO world, they are both far from perfect and conflict is an inevitable outcome for all of us eventually if we choose to enter areas where this is a possibility.  BDO has a heavy responsibility in trying to balance game play for EVERY player and no solution is ever going to please everyone, but I agree the current system is unbalanced in the penalties imposed on those trying to play within the rules this game was built on.

Actually man, we don't disagree that much.

I may have misunderstood one thing, the thing I hate the most in game and that everybody encounters in BDO: when a player comes to grief you, he calls you griefer. That happens with guys coming just like that, with no guild, or guys who want to dfs people who don't agree with that arrangement.

Then the griefer stays, pk the first who was there and if the first stays, the second one calls the first a griefer.

I never said I was for the griefers to be unpunished and the griefed to get sanctions, as you mention:

It's quiet the contrary actually: I'm for a protection of the route

I even said to @IWalkAlone: "I'm against those who come on a spot already taken, they are griefers, ruin the game, the farm, the buffs and the fun for others. When those ones karma bomb, it should be punishable."

I come back again with my idea but I've thought of that for a while now and don't understand why the devs didn't even think about trying it: make grinding rotations that you could validate every hour (1 hour 5 minutes, the times to put buffs and wait for mates if you're in group). It would still be in the open world, so gvg would still happen and interactions with anybody else too.

BUT

Any griefer coming - and I'm not talking only about the ones who wanna force the dfs but ALL kind of griefers, including karma bombers and all kind of toxics - would risk losing karma if he's killed by the guy having the rotation already.

The reasons for the griefer to risk loss of karma would be:

- pk the one grinding (or anyone in the group grinding) as long as he's in the zone and in his time

- activate the mobs in the zone, still during the time of the one grinding

The griefer would be killable then in the next 10 minutes ANYWHERE, even out of the grinding zone, to avoid any come and go on the spot. (I say 10 minutes but it could even be "during the rest of the grinding time")

If I misunderstood u the first time, I'm sorry.

The habits of encountering non stop dfs forcing bothers me and I especially hate when they dare to call you griefer when they are, actually.

You may or may not defend dfs, I don't and I might have thought you were kind of defending them with your idea.

(still think it's not an optimum solution, even though I get your intention)

P.S.: (edit) the karma system might be a hell of a work for the devs, to fix the problem of griefers.

I took that in consideration when I thought about a timer on every zone/route.

Marni's is not a real solution, even if it eases the grinding time for many people. But it's limited, you can't go in group and for those who want interactions or even those who like dfs, it cuts you out of the open world....

The intent was nice too but I don't think the devs have time to play their game! Otherwise they would have realised by now that it's not viable in the long term for most players.

First off, you're taking a stance that is 100% against the PoV Zeroden is bringing up.  You're talking about PK, which is entirely different from being "rotation griefed", basically.  This is why I keep saying "try to keep up" because you're so off course, one would think you're running into a wall.

Again -- The issue being brought up is NOT PK.  IE:  You're grinding and some overgeared monkey player-kills you.  It's a wonder to me why you keep reverting back to this stance, because: 1) The Karma System (rightfully) protects against this already, and 2) It isn't even the topic being discussed.

The issue is:  The Karma System being used against it's intended purpose, which is protecting from the aforementioned scenario.  IE:  You're grindng a solo grind spot and someone comes in, follows you around, kill-stealing mobs you're farming with absolutely nothing you can do about it.

It's also a wonder and quite hilarious to me that you're now running away from the discussion and make the claim my arguments are "senseless" without a shred of evidence or refutation to back up that illsighted claim.  The fact is, I am bringing up facts that dismantle and destroy every single off-based argument you're bringing up, hence you tucking your tail and running away.   Good riddance.  And thanks for the W.

Try to keep up.

I agree, this is the best solution to avoid conflicts and abuse of systems.  However, "first come, first served" is a community-created construct and is not required by game-design, Operational Policy (I'd suggest everyone to get acquainted with it) and Terms of Service.  IMO, players SHOULD be able to make their own choices when it comes to interaction with others. 

We play a MMO Role Playing Game, so if a players wants to assume the role of "bad guy", they should be able to (with limits to prevent abuse, of course).  Players should be able to make these types of meaningful choices in their gameplay because it adds to the depth and overall experience of this MMORPG.

What the problem is, is that the Karma System is open to abuse, and players actually do abuse it to grief others.  This should be minimized, and the devs even acknowledged it in this quote here.  And it's a wonder to me why some players act like it's a non-issue when the devs already know it is.

"As for the Karma system, we have no plans to change the system in any major way. This is because Black Desert exists as one huge field. We feel that the Karma system is a "standard" where we can distinguish between "PvP" and "PK." We will maintain a somewhat free PvP system on the field, but we want to discourage PK.

However, we've heard stories from certain regions where the Karma system is being abused. We are currently looking into an operational solution to improve on this issue."

https://www.sea.playblackdesert.com/en-US/News/Detail?groupContentNo=6882&countryType=en-US

The Karma System, indeed, is a double edged sword.  On one side, it rightfully protects players from PK, which is a form of griefing.  However, on the other side, it enables a type of griefing in BDO where players can intentionally negatively affect another player's experience by abusing a hole in the Karma System to gain unfair advantages and exploit the system beyond it's intended use.

Here's evidence of that:

What can I say? You must be right. (too lazy to waste my time further with you)

I had a lot of things to answer at start but then you went again condescending.

Have fun going circle.

Glad to help.

At first you were saying all sorts of tears and cries about Pkers and people who ask DFS, and now you "don't want restriction of any kind"?  How does that even make any sense (talk about "senseless").

By saying "it only bothers those who pk", you are ignoring the issues Zeroden and others are bringing up.  The same "issues" the devs already acknowledged at 2021 Calpheon Ball.  Invalidation, dismissiveness, illogical comments running rampant in your comments here.

I am not nice all the time, so sue me.  Facts > your feelings when it comes to dealing with the realities of Karma System abuse.  I'm just glad we have a platform to talk about the game and also glad the devs acknowledged this issue and are thinking of an "operation solution" to address it -- hopefully they do and hopefully this thread, created by a well-known community member and content creator, reaches devs' ears. 

Griefing comes in many forms, and all forms should be minimized or dealt with in some way to ensure a better experience for all players.  I'm sure any reasonable person would agree with that statement.

I'll lay down facts any time of the week.  You can run away now.

Very reasonable take.  And the fact you are a PVE/Lifeskiller with this take speaks volumes about your reasonableness and paying attention.

+1

I like your proposed system, but somehow I keep gravitiating back to "Individual Dec's" -- or as I like to call it, "The Vendetta System". 

We have Guild VS Guild decs already, so the Vendetta System isn't very different in that sense -- but it prevents players from being guildless or non-deccable to enhance griefing others.  Currently, what is stopping a guildless player or non-deccable guild in DP gear from running up to someone grinding, grabbing them from the back, and force-feeding them to mobs?  Nothing.  They don't even lose much Karma for doing so.  And we all know what happens when you die to mobs.  This is another example of how the Karma System is currently broken.  With the Vendetta System (individual decs), no player is safe from justified retribution, since if a player is being griefed, that player has at least ONE viable option in defending themselves.  Currently, guildless and non-decable guild players are 100% able to grief with impunity, quite literally.

With this system, there would, of course be limits.  IE:  If either player swaps severs, the Vendetta is cancelled automatically.  This would prevent hunting across multiple servers and would give players an option if they don't want the dec up anymore.  Another limit would be limiting the number of active Vendettas sent at one time -- you can only send it to one person and have it active at a time.  If a player has multiple people sending Vendettas on them, that player would simply swap server and all the active Vendettas would be cancelled.  Another limit would be limiting the total number of Vendettas that can be sent per week -- I would estimate 2 -3 per week, reset after every maintenance.  This would prevent players from sending Vendettas recklessly, since if they do, they are wasting this resource that could be used for self-defense purposes.

It's not perfect, I know.  And diminishing returns on Karma loss could be the ideal solution.  I do, though, find myself gravitating towards an individual dec system with limits because I feel the change to the game it'll have is minimal (as we already have Guild VS Guild decs available), but the effects are massive since; 1) Guildless / non-decable guilds will no longer be able to grief with impunity, and 2) It gives players a tangible solution when dealing with bad actors.

Anyways, thanks for reading my spit balling.  Hopefully the devs come up with something good and hopefully we can help.