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Fix BDO's Karma System
Jan 8, 2023, 22:24 (UTC)
7187 240
Last Edit : Jan 21, 2023, 07:20 (UTC)
# 231
On: Jan 20, 2023, 20:29 (UTC), Written by PeaceInChaos

You bring up some good points, and while I do not 100% understand Zeroden's full suggestions with all the ins-and-outs he's suggesting, I did come up with something.  Wondering what you think of it, lookiong for positive, constructive feedback on this proposal and potential flaws that would prevent the system from being a net positive impact for the game.  I'll present the idea and the bulletpoints associated with it, things like it's limitations to prevent abuse and workings.

Individual "Dec" System ("Vendetta System")

Description:

- This system functions very similarly to the current Guild vs Guild System, where guilds can declare war on other guilds.

- The main difference is that it is between two indivudal players as opposed to entire guilds.

- Individual Players would be able to "dec" (mark another player with a "Vendetta" against them) other individual players, but with limitations to this to prevent abusing it to recklessly PK.

Limitations:

- Vendettas cannot be sent to multiple players are one time.  Players are allowed one active sent-Vendetta at a time.

- Players may have multiple received-Vendettas applied to them at one time.

- However, all active Vendettas; sent and received, are automatically cancelled via channel swap.

- If either player swaps to a different channel, all active Vendettas are cancelled for all parties involved regarding said Vendetta.

- Only players who are in guilds are allowed to send Vendettas, but all players (guilded or guildless) are able to receive Vendettas.

- Sending Vendettas are treated as a privilege and a limited resource.

- Players are alotted one or two Vendettas they can send per week, reset after every maintenance.  This is to encourage wise-use and not to waste a Vendetta for toxic purposes.

- Once a Vendetta is sent, both players shall have the channel the Vendetta was issued on as "Marked".  A "Marked" channel will retain the Vendetta status for 24 hours.

- A Marked channel's purpose is to prevent players from swapping channels to end the Vendetta, but swapping right back to continue griefing the same player.

Workings (via examples):

- Player A is grinding a rotation.  Guildless Player B enters and tries outfarming Player A.  Player A tries diplomacy, but Guildless Player B ignores Player A and continues farming mobs that Player A is trying to farm.

- Player A sends a Vendetta which takes effect after 5 - 10 minutes.  Player B is notified that a Vendetta is sent to them, from who, with a banner notification.

- The two players are able to fight it out until one player gives up and leaves.

Goals with this system:

The Vendetta System's aim is to maintain BDO's core gameplay and main content.  This core gameplay and main content being stated by the developers as a (quote) "huge open field" and "adventurers fighting monsters alongside others".  While maintaining BDO's core gameplay and main content, the Vendetta System hopes to add an additional layer of protection for players, along with the Karma System (current Karma System is unchanged), by allowing players a form of reasonable retribution in the event they encounter someone with whom there is conflict.  We currently have GvG Wars, the Vendetta System functions similarly to this in both ideology and function, exept, it is between individual players, not entire guilds. 

Result:

This will eliminate the ability for Guildless Players to grief others who are grinding with impunity, as they can do currently.  This will also eliminate the situation of an entire guild being dec'd on behalf of the bad actions of one player of said guild, if the Vendetta is sent to non-guildless player.

The current Karma System is unchanged.  PK is still heavily discouraged.

Your thoughts?

I do have one, very specific, scenario I am concerned with, however, as I realize nothing in this world is ever perfect.  This system not being an exception.  Zeroden brought this up and I am trying to figure out a way to prevent this, very specific, scenario. 

Say you are grinding in a solo grind spot and multiple players, from different guilds, shows up -- they all send a Vendetta on you at the same time.  You are then forced to leave.  You can swap channels and this will effectively cancel all Vendetta's that were sent to you and each of those players who sent it will be down one out of the maximum two alotted Vendettas they have per week = this is the biggest consequence for them for using it to force you out, but is it enough?  To me, it's yes and no.  Yes, because you are given a way to end the Vendetta at your choosing and the players who sent it to you, quite literally, wasted a valuable resource.  No, because you lose the spot on that channel.  I do not forsee this happening frequently, however, no more frequently than what the more lenient GvG System allows, at least. 

The current GvG System is more lenient, but, when a player is not in a guild, they are allowed free reign to grief others.  They do assume a "safety net", however, by being guildless -- but this "safety net" can be abused.  How do we prevent this abuse?  It is 100% of the time guildless players who are allowed the maximum amount of griefing in this game, IMHO.  Guilds can at least declare war.  Guildless players cannot.  This allows them literal free reign to grief others via farming on top of other players, ruining their experience in this way, with zero repercussion, because there simply is no form of prevention of bad behavior via retribution, nor is there any penalty for doing so.  A penalty will be difficult to apply to this, so I believe retribution is the best way -- in a way that aligns with BDO's core gameplay, main content, and abiding by current rules laid out by the Operational Policy and ToS.

Sounds flawless.  A great idea with no exploits.

This way I can make up some FAKE vendetta against EVERY SINGLE weak player and just wreck them because I FEEL LIKE IT.  But that's not exploiting anything because I will do it ONE NEWB at a time ROFL.

GIT GUD and go to Arsha.

No one is suprised you DO NOT ADHERE TO YOUR OWN STANDARDS either.

"Surprise: Trying to outfarm others on the same spot is also a form of PvP."

Now lets hunt down some Shai's I have a "cough Vendetta" against them, nothing to do with their gimped PVP class.

If I find any flaws in your bad ideas I'll let you know.  Right now I can't find any.

This was deleted by the writer.
Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 00:49 (UTC)
# 233
On: Jan 21, 2023, 07:17 (UTC), Written by JackBelling

Sounds flawless.  A great idea with no exploits.

This way I can make up some FAKE vendetta against EVERY SINGLE weak player and just wreck them because I FEEL LIKE IT.  But that's not exploiting anything because I will do it ONE NEWB at a time ROFL.

GIT GUD and go to Arsha.

No one is suprised you DO NOT ADHERE TO YOUR OWN STANDARDS either.

"Surprise: Trying to outfarm others on the same spot is also a form of PvP."

Now lets hunt down some Shai's I have a "cough Vendetta" against them, nothing to do with their gimped PVP class.

If I find any flaws in your bad ideas I'll let you know.  Right now I can't find any.

I know reading isn't your strong point (aside from being toxic, IDK what is, TBH.  I mean, who makes 5+ BDO unlinked forum accounts, gets banned on them all, and keeps coming back to continue being toxic anyway?), but if you read, this problem has already been considered.  In fact, was the very first potential problem I thought of addressing.

1)  There would be a limit to the amount of Vendettas players can send per week.  1 - 3, possiblly; the exact number is tentative, however the idea remains in tact = Vendettas are a limited resource that should be used wisely.  This would prevent players from your statement of "I will do it ONE NEWB at a time ROFL", that you so eloquently described.

2)  Players can only send one Vendetta at a time.  If a player has an active sent-Vendetta, they cannot issue another one until said Vendetta is ended.

3)  All active Vendettas are automatically cancelled via channel swap of any party involved in said Vendetta.

Just because YOU'D use the system in a toxic manner, it doesn't mean everyone would.  But even if you did choose to use it like an egomaniac, the system has built-in prevention measures that take your toxic actions into consideration.

I think I've thought of all possible ways to abuse it, but if anyone else -- aside from you -- can think of any other ways it can be abused, I'm all ears.  Clearly, if this is the only rebuttal you have, I'm 10 steps ahead of you.

Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 00:48 (UTC)
# 234
On: Jan 21, 2023, 05:59 (UTC), Written by Harth

I'd upvote this proposal in its own thread, as having it buried down in a "Let us harass anyone, from lifeskillers to 49ers, with no consequences" thread isn't ideal.

I've made several threads in the past exploring ways address the Karma System's exploitability.  I'm sure Zeroden didn't intend his proposal to encourage harrassment, especially on lifeskillers to 49ers, maybe it was an oversight, but I'm sure that specific issue could be addressed within his proposal.  I'll consider making a new thread with my proposal, thanks for your feedback.  Although, I am concerned that it will devolve, from what would be intended to be constructive and aimed at positive change for the game, to toxic drivel like this one, sadly, has.

Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 00:58 (UTC)
# 235

Like everyone does. specifically because of the annoying replies from one specific person. I wonder who that might be that goes around systematically shitting up every thread on pvp topics.

Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 06:47 (UTC)
# 236
On: Jan 24, 2023, 00:48 (UTC), Written by PeaceInChaos

I've made several threads in the past exploring ways address the Karma System's exploitability.  I'm sure Zeroden didn't intend his proposal to encourage harrassment, especially on lifeskillers to 49ers, maybe it was an oversight, but I'm sure that specific issue could be addressed within his proposal.  I'll consider making a new thread with my proposal, thanks for your feedback.  Although, I am concerned that it will devolve, from what would be intended to be constructive and aimed at positive change for the game, to toxic drivel like this one, sadly, has.

Would love to upvote this idea in its own thread and discuss further :) I'm sure the CMs can read around his posts as long as we don't give him the attention he's craving.

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Novinae
Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 07:10 (UTC)
# 237
On: Jan 24, 2023, 00:48 (UTC), Written by PeaceInChaos

I've made several threads in the past exploring ways address the Karma System's exploitability.  I'm sure Zeroden didn't intend his proposal to encourage harrassment, especially on lifeskillers to 49ers, maybe it was an oversight, but I'm sure that specific issue could be addressed within his proposal.  I'll consider making a new thread with my proposal, thanks for your feedback.  Although, I am concerned that it will devolve, from what would be intended to be constructive and aimed at positive change for the game, to toxic drivel like this one, sadly, has.

When it comes to heavily polarized topics, they devolve, yes. There are people here that seem to have that set as their life's purpose. But that doesn't mean anything. I doubt that the CMs will spend time sifting through 1000 pages to draw their conlcusion if a suggestion is worth discussing or not. If the suggestion itself seems feasible and an added value to the game, they might pass it up the chain, regardless if the thread itself turned into a bridge, offering shelter to all the trolls that got kicked out of Quint's Hill.

Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 08:05 (UTC)
# 238
On: Jan 24, 2023, 00:37 (UTC), Written by PeaceInChaos

I know reading isn't your strong point (aside from being toxic, IDK what is, TBH.  I mean, who makes 5+ BDO unlinked forum accounts, gets banned on them all, and keeps coming back to continue being toxic anyway?), but if you read, this problem has already been considered.  In fact, was the very first potential problem I thought of addressing.

1)  There would be a limit to the amount of Vendettas players can send per week.  1 - 3, possiblly; the exact number is tentative, however the idea remains in tact = Vendettas are a limited resource that should be used wisely.  This would prevent players from your statement of "I will do it ONE NEWB at a time ROFL", that you so eloquently described.

2)  Players can only send one Vendetta at a time.  If a player has an active sent-Vendetta, they cannot issue another one until said Vendetta is ended.

3)  All active Vendettas are automatically cancelled via channel swap of any party involved in said Vendetta.

Just because YOU'D use the system in a toxic manner, it doesn't mean everyone would.  But even if you did choose to use it like an egomaniac, the system has built-in prevention measures that take your toxic actions into consideration.

I think I've thought of all possible ways to abuse it, but if anyone else -- aside from you -- can think of any other ways it can be abused, I'm all ears.  Clearly, if this is the only rebuttal you have, I'm 10 steps ahead of you.

Easy to dismantle.

I play a very strong PVP class and I have top end game gear.  I go to high yield areas where my GS is significantly higher than the content.  It's contested so I try to DFS people.  I don't play enough to need 100 Vendetta's.  Some players I try to mob feed and when it becomes to pesky after I fail enough mob feeding attempts.

Guess what I do then? I completley cheese those players that I couldn't force out by exploiting mob feeding or exploiting clan dec.  I completely remove their Karma System (Which is DESIGNED to protect them) and take the spot because I'm the king #$%$# and that's just how it is boyz.

You see this system is great because it works for ME.  And that's all that matters ;)

You see I'm actually A SMART player.  Something YOU can't take into account.  I know I have a limited amount of Vendetta's so my go to is always to MOB FEED first or try to grind in someone else's spot and annjoy them into leaving while I wait for a cheesy war dec. 

I ONLY use the broken Vendetta system as a last resort to steal spots when all other methods fail ;)

Oh and I saved the BEST for last.  When I find someone I dominate via class and gear score.  I use the VENDETTA system to MOB FEED them.  That way I get unlimited attempts without ever going red.  It's amazingly fun to spoil their game experience that way.

At the end of the week right before my Vendetta resets I just look for targets to mob feed.  LOL it's FUNNY FOR ME.  They seem to hate it and feel it's abusive, but you know what they say  "#%$#% em, it's a PVP game brah LOL"

Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 08:11 (UTC)
# 239
On: Jan 24, 2023, 00:58 (UTC), Written by Crab18

Like everyone does. specifically because of the annoying replies from one specific person. I wonder who that might be that goes around systematically shitting up every thread on pvp topics.

It appears this is an example of you "shitting up every thread" in your own words.  The post right above this one is an amazing break down of major faults in one of the suggested proposals.

It's on topic and very valuable and detailed information pointing out specific issues and how easily they would be abused.  Unlike your post which provides absolutely nothing ;)

Last Edit : Jan 24, 2023, 09:59 (UTC)
# 240
On: Jan 24, 2023, 08:01 (UTC), Written by JackBelling

Oh and I saved the BEST for last.  When I find someone I dominate via class and gear score.  I use the VENDETTA system to MOB FEED them.  That way I get unlimited attempts without ever going red. 

You forget the part where mob-death penalities should be removed at the same time, so this doesn't work :)

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