Glad someone who's more recognized in the community is speaking up about this.  I comment in the forum a lot when I'm at work; have been since Kakao days.  And I've been in many, many discussions/threads regarding the huge flaws and holes in the current karma system that are ripe for exploitation.  As someone who plays mostly late night and just does my own thing mostly, I've experienced being Karma bombed and what sucks is when you're griefed in this way, you -- as the person who was minding your own business -- literally have no course of action you can take without losing something.  Even if you did not instigate a conflict and were, literally, minding your own business, you can be griefed by a Karma Bomber and can't do anything without losing something.  This is where mob-feeding comes into play, because mob-feeding (which can be another form of griefing) then becomes a last-resort option to defend oneself from being griefed.  Kinda sucks though, since Sorc isn't a great class at doing this (no grab).  And it sucks to have to resort to being a griefer yourself just to defend yourself from being griefed.  And, while all the spots I currently grind have mobs that actually do damage, not all grind spots' mobs do, so this isn't always a viable tangible option.

I understand BDO is a sandbox and OWPVP is possible -- and that's great and one reason I love BDO -- BUT it is Karma Bombing, the literal weaponizing of the Karma System, that holds OWPVP back.

You're entering a realm of tilt here. I haven't resorted to name calling. The more angry you become, the less rational or valid your message seems. If you have a valid point to make, I'd love to hear it, and as such, I am responding to your statements accordingly.

With the current system, regardless of how you feel, the person being Karma bombed only has two options available to them. Either they mob feed you, potentially costing you billions of silver, or they grind over you, sacrificing efficiency of both of you.

You are looking at this from strictly the perspective of a new player. If a new player came into my rotation and started grinding over me, I would first ask them to move elsewhere. If it escalates, I would flag and kill them. If they return without flagging, I would Alt + C and grip them until a hungry mob took a bite, and I would repeat this ad-nauseum until that player realized he's griefing himself.

That's the only options left to me short of leaving with all my buffs. With a deminishing returns system, some manners come into play. Could the system be exploited where someone gets griefed for an hour? Yes, but you also have to make a conscious decision to continously return for each griefing, and no matter what, you will not lose your crystals or downgrade your gear.

Even if the concept doesn't appeal to you, the reality is objectively better for all parties if you consider the total sum of the circumstances. 

Hey PeaceInChaos, no need to introduce yourself friend! I remember you from several threads I've posted here. I think an individual dec system would be abysmal to a player who is just looking to move on or play the game. Nothing stops 5 people from individually decing one person to grief them with a party. Also, even if only one person could hold the dec at a time, nothing stops me from having my friend dec me so I can grind in peace, and we're right back to the old system.

I am 100% behind you on shorter activation for GvG's. Perhaps 10 minutes instead of 15 is appropriate.

Deminishing returns as recommended in the video resolves the PK problem because it doesn't allow you to PK multiple players without having to leave and regain karma.

@Zeroden My points are valid and you should be able to understand them.

And I'm not angry but thank you to worry about my state! 😅

Now, let's be serious because you haven't read my answer seriously.

So anybody coming on your grinding spot is toxic, whatever choice he makes. Ok. On that I agree. And the karma system is there to avoid this kind of bullying behavior, which is called "griefer".

Btw mob feeding is risky for both parts so it's not a solution either.

Actually not, I took that example, but it's among many other examples. People, in general, who are quietly grinding on their spot, should not suffer any griefer, noob or old.

On that part we agree, people coming to ruin your farm should be the ones punished. That's why there should be some system of grinding zone booking for 1h, some protection for your farm going on. That way, no griefer could come and ruin your buffs and everything.

Marni's doesn't cover the group zones and is only 1h a day. I'm talking about the regular game there.

Now, the lonely questionable point there: do we agree on what a griefer is? You seem to confirm that it's someone coming to ruin your farm. So we should be speaking the same language. No?

Last step :

Player : "well, if you don't want to take action, I'll simply feed my opponent to mobs and maybe, with the penalties, he may finally decide to leave the spot"

That's where we are now. Sounds nice, sure. 

Could we also stop with the manichean version of the filthy PKer and the virtuous bodythrower? 

I read this the other day in forums and I agree with it. Let the karma system be calculated based on the highest gear you had in a conflict. This means if at any time you get hit is at a higher gear, then no matter if you take your gear off or not, that will be the gear that karma is calculated in. 

Awesome, finally some viable counters to the individual dec thing.  Up until this point, no one has given a reasonable response opposed to it and I'm glad you did.  I was actually waiting until someone could because, while I really thought it was the "best" option in my eyes, I wanted to see anything wrong with it and couldn't think of one.  So right on for pointing it out.

> About the 5 people dec'ing one person issue, however, with the proposed "Vendetta System" (individual dec), the person dec'd would just simply need to server swap and it would cancel the dec on all parties.  The parties who sent the dec would then be down a dec each, since there would be a limit to the number of decs that could be given out per week, kinda shooting themselves in the foot, in a sense.  The "one dec at a time" concept would funciton, in that, you can only issue one dec to one other person at a time, so someone could potentially have multiple individual decs from other individual parties.

I'm sure there's still lots holes in it despite these limitations.  And I think the solution of diminishing returns on Karma loss would be really effective in deterring Karma Bombing.  At the end of the day, the big issue is the Karma System is open to exploitation and that needs addressing.  I watched your video and you bring up very important points and I hope the devs pay close attention to it.  Not only are you a well-known community member, but you speak for the rest of us who aren't as "out there" and known, but still share the same negative experience Karma Exploiters / griefers can do to others.

Giving us a "tool" -- or an actual recourse of action -- against Karma Bombers, IMO, is the ideal thing, which is why I thought of this "Individual Dec" System.  I figure if we could actually defend ourselves, without needing a guild to help, would give at least ONE viable option when defending ourselves from griefers.  As of now, there's literally zero things we can do -- without losing something -- to defend ourselves from Karma Exploiters and I'd love it if we at least had something.  Thanks for the video and post!

I actually like this one, it's pretty smart. Only make it character-limited, not family wide. I.e. based on the highest gear worn by the character.

My responses in orange

Actually yes, it is the spot of the person on it.

If I wanna park my car, I'm not gonna find the guy to tell him "I want that spot and my car is bigger and faster so move out!"

The spot is taken so it's my problem to find another one, as it's civilized to park somewhere else and not dfs another driver.

Same mechanics as in life: first come first serve.

So I will definitely not agree with this lack of courtesy in the game you're talking about.

I already mentionned Marni's. Please read more carefully.

I proposed another system in addition where every player could validate a grinding zone for 1 hour. It would be renewable since it would not be in an instance but in the open world. So for every hour that a guy (or a group) wanna farm, he would have to validate his zone every hour.

It's not band-aids, it's a definitive solution against players who wanna come and steal the spot of the one already farming without annoying anybody.

By Wiktionary: One who griefs: a player who plays a game primarily to reduce other players’ enjoyment of it.

By Wikipedia: A griefer derives pleasure primarily, or exclusively, from the act of annoying other users, and as such, is a particular nuisance in online gaming communities. Griefing usually involves using aspects of the game in unintended ways to annoy other players.

-> "using aspects of the game": you talk about karma bombing because it arranges you but the truth is people overgeared use their overgear to take away the spot and the fun of another player. THAT is the 1st aspect of the game you use permanently, by pking and harassing! And the 2nd aspect u use, it's blackmailing: "accept dfs or gvg!" So people like you use even more the mechanics of the games toward innocent players trying to play quietly by their side after they took the time already to find a free spot, maybe to avoid any conflict or pvp (which YOU bring!) or perhaps because they don't wanna ruin the farm of other players so they took the necessary time for that, the time YOU won't take! You stop other players to have fun and trying to get a better gear because YOU have decided so and you let them no choice! It's you who annoy them when you kill them during their grinding time and YOU ARE the griefer there, not the other way around, destroying their game, their buffs, their farm and their play time.

By reverso: According to Oxford Dictionaries, a "griefer" is "a person who harasses or deliberately provokes other players or members [of an online game or community] in order to spoil their enjoyment."

-> once again, exactly what does a guy coming on purpose to ruin the farm of another player, without any consideration other than their own.

In real life nobody would be toxic that way. Nor while parking a car, neither in the supermarket where a smaller person is before you. Would you dfs him so you would take his spot and go out faster of the shop?

If you're civilized usually, how come you're not in the game?

Griefers like that are toxic. Definitely. Let the people farm quietly and kindly on their spots already. And if you don't, call yourself a griefer!

Karma system is there to avoid that and it's a good thing. No wonder why PA made it... They even made it harder with time. Maybe you should wonder why.