...

see its because of people like you this happens too, snowflakes everywhere. Now I'll explain whats wrong with your pov and how it's only right in your mind and that you are correct only in your own eyes, the way majority of people on the planet argue.

Your buffs are on, you're already there. So what ? Just because you're there it's yours ? Wdym why would HE grief ? If you refuse to duel, if use refuse to talk, if you refuse to notice the person, which is a choice some people do or use a combination of these.... You are actually griefing me now, cus you're being a dick head by not responding or just saying "no" and continuing grind like you're driving a Formula 1.

This is the most common situation I had, a racer who is grinding as if he's sitting in a F1 race car, ignores me for 1min of chasing around and politely asking for a duel, I have a lot of patience and I know sometimes people tunnel vision into extended time of grinding.

Say I switched servers multiple times, I have cd on top of cd, I already used my time for 'searching' , I can not use any more of that time rolling the dice just to be super nice... I come to the spot and lets say all rotations are taken, but I still pick one and that person happens to be the one I described above. That's You

What do you want from me now, say sorry I interrupted you for coming to play my game simply cus you have buffs and you were there grinding already ? Is the whole grinding area or a rotation yours ?

The grinding spots arent 100km^2. They can be limited, you're forced to run in eventually into a fkng live person grinding and something needs to happen.. Nobody cares about your buffs or that you were there. There was a duel etiquette from very early BDO days, the losing person leaves the spot, it's brutal sure, stronger one survives, maybe toxic to others too, but it worked in a way at least, it's better than massacring each other with alt+c and people raging and quitting, BDO would be dead game if imagine nobody came up with a duel idea, just imagine. Slash the player base another 2 or 3 times. Now actually, that would be beneficial to you cause you would be able to grind in your 'piece' since most areas would be empty as heck.

So you see what I mean ? You ignoring somebody or refusing duel makes you a dick head in my eyes. So I'm gonna alt+c and kill you like the mob you are. So if I'm a griefer to you, then you are a griefer for me. I wouldn't give you a win for this one, saying the person wanting to duel is the griefer, no way, but I'd agree to take a 50-50 on this one because this whole mess is a grey area just like the topic of "What is p2w?" is it pay for convenience or pay for immediate power gain. People do have 50% split opinion on this topic. Grey Area asf.

Yes, whole karma/duel/pvp system could use some rework, so until that we're stuck using duel idea, it does work at the moment, it's not optimal but it's better than nothing, without it everyone would be running red 24/7 this wouldn't be a game.
"Ohh just let me grind piecefully. I play this mmo to relax. do you think I grind a lot ?" - actually a quote from one time one person. Almost makes you feel bad for disturbing such a nice guy..
Whaa- ?? Excuse me this is not 'this' or 'just' mmo. It's very rare of a kind one, where players are actually allowed to flag up and kill anyone on the spot in the open world, once you leave the village you're no longer safe. You just have to deal with it if you play this game, that's just how it is. That's why it's called a "hardcore mmo grinder" even though i don't like to use that word. But.. you just simply have to deal with it like I said to get over it.

Small reminder to many of you...

DFS... First come first served... Discussions... Yar for spot... All of them are in fact player-made rules of conduct.

As such, even if you can find a player who is ok with your proposed rules, it won't happen every time and you'll also find players who don't care about your rules. Are they griefers? Not necessarily. From your point of view, maybe, but players have so many different definitions for "griefing".

The only thing that matters is the game's rules. As much as I dislike both bodythrowing and mob feeding, they are part of the rules too. Any player can use them, and as long as one exists, the other must stay.

No need to scratch your head to find which is the correct "player-made rule" in this situation, none of them is. The only real way to make it better is for the devs to change the initial pvp/pk rules to create a real good system, and the picture given by Castastigma is obviously one of the best basis, though it would be incomplete.

Yes, it is.

You're the griefer if you invade a spot already taken and ruin anybody's farm.

DFS is not a rule, it's an arrangement. As such, it is supposed to arrange players. If it doesn't arrange, it's not.

No problem, everybody is entitled to their own opinion. But still a guy breaking/ruining a grind is a griefer.
 

 

Players have a right to ask Duel for Spot and players also have a right to accept or deny the request.  No one is wrong for all of these.  IMO, no one is griefing by asking DFS nor are they griefing by refusing a DFS request.

You are allowed to Duel for Spot.  You are also allowed to PK others.  This is allowed by the game and the consequence of it is Karma loss.  You can also declare a guild war, this is also allowed by the game, Operational Policy, and ToS, like PK (with Karma loss) is allowed.  Players are also allowed to be diplomatic and take turns grinding the spot.  All these things fall within BDO's gameplay.

It becomes toxic when either player goes beyond this, at least IMO.  IE:  If someone says "no" to your DFS request, you get your feelings hurt, and you start kill-stealing mobs from them.  That's griefing.  If someone says "no" and you start feeding them to mobs.  Also griefing.  If a player ignores you or says "no" and that's it, it could be perceived as rude, sure.  If you'd like to take action against them for it, I'd suggest GVG dec.  But I would not suggest PK since you'll (rightfully) lose Karma nor would I suggest griefing them.  If someone tells you "no" or ignores you, IMO the best courses of action are, 1) GVG, 2) Find something else to do or somewhere else to grind, or 3) Go red. These are "best" IMO because they all are within, what I perceive to be, intended game mechaincs.  I do not consider mob-feeding or Karma Bombing "intended game mechanics", instead I view them as exploiting systems / griefing.

There is never a case in end game content where a player will attempt to just pk a player out of a spot.  It's already known by all veteran players that this method isn't effective.  100% of the time in a dispute one player will attempt to abuse the flag system to mob feed the other player/leave/or fight over the spawn.

This is a LOSE/LOSE situation for everyone.  It doesnt matter if you want the spot from another player, are killing or getting killed.  Or if you already occupied the spot.

In every single case EVERYONE LOSES.

One side complains about karma bombing the other side complains about getting mob feed/pk'd.

This isn't even really a PVP issue, it's just bad game design.  It's a result of poor quality work that results in many areas having zero players while everyone fights over the limited high yield areas.

Simple tools to track silver/hr properly or permanent instance zones are a more vialbe solution than any changes to PVP. 

These discussions are almost impossible to have because the players that do not wanrt to be PKed argue in such bad faith. Just take a look at the comments they amke insinuating that they are always just in their rotation peacefully grinding until the evil PKer comes in to kill them and steal away their rotation. Its intentionally obtuse to the point of being disgusting.

The truth here is this. Players are prone to effiency. They will use or abuse whatever system exists to get the outcome that they want. The karma system should be a shield for new players and weaker individuals to protect their game experience but due to the weight of the penalties it can apply and its shoddy implementation it has been mutated into a weapon that the entire playerbase uses because it is the only effective and reliable weapon that exists. If we swap the the diminishing return system some players will just use it to grief, picking one player and following them endlessly for an hour killing them over and over to ruin their experience.

I despise the current karma system, but realise that every single system is a race to the bottom. if there is any imperfection that can be used to negatively impact another player it will be weaponized.

Lets remove ALL bad faith and just use facts and actual real information.

If you play on Season servers upon release while everyone is cramped into the lower zones you may experience people coming into your rotation.  This is actually a game defect not even player choice.  It means the game can not support it's own player base.

The fact is after years of playing it's been hardly 10 times a player attempted to grind over me and just compete for the mobs.  While in contrast 1,000's of times someone came into my rotation trying to take it.

These mysterious players trying to just grinding over people in end game locations is a myth.  They simply do not exist.

Logically of course they don't exist.  Lets look at what people are trying to claim.  Their claim is that an area producing 400 silver/hr they would be fine just grinding over someone and getting 200 silver/hr instead of going somewhere else.  That's just how the play the game.  It literally makes no sense.

While DFS players DO NOT try to grind over people.  They attempt to FORCE customers out using tactics which are bannable in some regions.  They WILL NOT compete for mobs.  They will either exploit the game to force customers out or they will move to another location.

That MAKES sense.

I dont understand the distinction between players grinding over you for mobs and players coming in to your rotation to take it.

If you mean players that are trying to share the locatiuon with you then yea I agree. Noone is trying to share a 600m spot so you both get 300. Theyre trying to harass you until you leave. Truthfully its pvp of a different sort. They are in direct competition with you over the resource and whoever gets annoyed faster usually loses.

In my opinion the karma system should only exist to curn the worst use cases of player behavior, not exist as a barrier between all forms of pvp. Being PKed in an OWPVP game isnt the same thing as being griefed. Having the same person hound you for hours killing you repeatedly is. Just the same way that I could grief someone right now without offending the karma system at all by taking off all my gear except weapons and following new players around for hours killing all their mobs infront of them to ruin their experience. This form of griefing is fully allowed by the karma system as it currently exists.

If you play on season server, you're not actually playing the game in its initial game design, that's why you're restricted in gear and time on these servers. So you shouldn't take it as a reference anyway, seasons are a kind of tutorial / catch-up system.