Another very funny post, thank you.  I was wondering if you even play the game and the answer is clearly NOT.

"For the n-th time. This isn't supposed to deal with overpowering opponents (say, going to grind centaurs after taking a break from trolls and stomping out everyone there). That issue can be solved with diminishing returns on loot, similar to how grinding lvl 20 mobs on a lvl 60 works."

So true.  Grinding spots with ridiculously higher gear just ISN'T how the game is played.

Thank you for telling everyone you don't play BDO.  It makes sense about why you don't compehend how War Decs work either.

Lets hurry up with these updates.  I'm kind of bored grinding end game zones and would enjoy beating down some newbs after you strip away the karma system.  WAIT!  Hold UP!!!! Why don't I just go beat them down NOW!!!!!!!  Oh yeah that damn Karma system making it more diffcult to me chase them off the server.  Lets get rid of this karma system.  It's really hindering my bullying of those players who haven't been around for years.

Mate, first thing, you don't even have a character associate with your forum profile. So I dunno who isn't playing the game.

2nd, thing, learning to read helps. You quoted me without actually comprehending what you quote? 

You're confusing me quite a bit. As I no longer can tell if you're a karmabombing troll or just... well... ;)

Did you really think the answer is getting Pearl Abyss to revamp all the areas correctly so lower areas don't yield more?  The Pearl Abyss that recently released new Elvia areas there where not even close to being viable?  The Pearl Abyss that then actually paid employees to create the failed content and then paid them more to FAIL AGAIN with yet another revamp?  The Pearl Abyss that changed Padix to a solo area that isn't worth travelling to?

Lets imagine for a moment Pearl Abyss actually had competent employees that could handle basic tasks.  Have you ever witnessed human beings online?  Have you EVER played an online game?  How did you NOT SEE people dragging people out to see on boats just because they could?  How did you NOT SEE people trolling people outside of town just to harass them?

Do you REALLY think the player base can manage itself without a proper karma system?  What else do you think?

Do you think children DON'T need baby sitters?  That parents can just leave children home alone?

Do you think all managers are a waste of resources?

Do you think all police are just a waste of money?

Do you think we should get rid of all judges?

I don't see much difference between the absurdity of those questions and your own proposal.

How do you NOT know about Olivia?

How do you NOT know why you can't PVP during world bosses?

New players can't even log into the game without seeing the filth of the community saying obnoxious and innapropriate things.  

Please answer the question.  How do you NOT know any of these things?  Or just admit to trolling ;)

You can check my account. I played the game a bit. You have no character associated with your forum account, so we can more easily state you don't play this game. So...

Stop the trolling, please. And dragging the conversation so far off-topic that we'd need a Falcon heavy to get to it and bring it back. Thanks!

"And then be unable to grind in a different spot because you can only have 1 flag up at a time."

elaborate on what you mean by this, because both ways i see this is incorrect.

- You want to go grind orcs when you have a flag in nagas

not only would not being able to do this a design flaw, but also no one would do 10 minutes of nagas and think to themselves they would just switch to orcs. 

- you're doing orc rotation 1 and have to do rotation 2 with weapon

this is straight up a design flaw and if your system don't either contain both rotations or would stop you from going into rotation 2 when ure in rotation 1. 

"Unless, because of the system being in place, the war dec would no longer be that easy and cheap to send."

so once again back to my point that this system relys on a change to another part of the game that you self admitted that you have no idea how to change. please delete your suggestion and focus on suggesting changes to war decs if that's the case. 

"The above are arguments for declaring a war. Because something in the dfs part went wrong. Because the rules of dfs change based on the outcome and the attitude of the opponents."

with your entire suggestion boiling down to placing a flag down for some benefits and no karma loss, there has been zero mention of how you think your suggestion will make the "arguments for declaring a war" go away. you have again and again stated that it will, without giving out any sort of explanation of why you think it will. you have again and again dodged that question.. maybe because you yourself don't think that it will? 

again, explain how you think having a flag down will-

3. You get war dec'ed for using potions during a duel.

4. You get war dec'ed if you refuse a rematch.

5. You get war dec'ed if the other player isn't satisfied with the outcome and intends to feed you to the mobs later down the line

because nothing in your system will stop someone from deccing someone because they used pots while fighting , nothing in your system will stop someone from refusing a rematch, and nothing in your system will stop someone from not being satisfied with the outcome/wanting to feed you to mobs later on. you keep repeating that this system will help with war decs, but even in your own examples it doesn't. the only thing it fixes would be going to zero karma and having to dec, but then we're back to yet again this suggestion being a disguised attempt to make the karma system irrelevant, which is something you have clearly stated isn't the goal.

"You either refuse to understand - or pretend not to - that the defense for making war decs easy to send is because of how horrible contesting a spot can go. Fix the abuses on the latter and then tweak the former."

You either refuse to understand - or pretend not to - that your suggestion has zero substance in regards to how it would make the defenses for war decs harder. you have given examples that anyone can clearly see will just happen with or without the system. your idea completely hinges on war decs being harsher, an idea that you yourself has admitted "raise the requirements on unilateral war decs. I wouldn't know what's the best way of going about that bit though.". focus on that rather than sticking to what is right now a sinking ship. 

"For the n-th time. This isn't supposed to deal with overpowering opponents (say, going to grind centaurs after taking a break from trolls and stomping out everyone there). That issue can be solved with diminishing returns on loot, similar to how grinding lvl 20 mobs on a lvl 60 works."

so youre going to punish people for grinding centaurs when they have the gear to do elvia nagas, which is worse silver/hr? either that completely kills the suggestion because of how absurd it is, or this suggestion hinges on yet another suggestion being passed which is rebalancing of grind spots. it's already bad enough that your suggestion hinges on a completely different unsuggested suggestion that you yourself have no idea on how to change, it hinges on another one that PA has ignored for a while. 

"If the attacker doesn't stop losing karma, you'll be more happy to throw yourself at him/her, in your underwear. And he/she will be more than happy to declare on you, so they can teabag the karmabombing out of you, unless, ofc you roam alone, to deny your victims that way out. As you're always arguing from a position of weakness (in terms of player stats) and try to maintain your secret weapons while at it, it leaves this feeling... that I can't really put into words... ;)

so you actually admitted here that if someone doesn't accept the "made up dfs rules" even with your suggestion in place(something you said this would fix), war decs are going to happen(something you said this would fix) . crazy how you give all this reasoning and then just admit that your system won't solve the problem(problems you said this would fix) , and that at the end of the day is just about circumventing the karma system.(something you said this isn't supposed to fix)

this might also be a crazy concept to you but even if you have 720+gs and be in a nw/siege guild that is deccable you can still use common sense. a suggestion that don't even solve the problems that it's trying to solve with the poster declining time and time again on explaining why it would fix it, and completely hinges on at least one other suggestion that the poster self admits they have no idea how to even start suggesting? well it's only common sense that the idea is at the very best useless at this point in time. 

also why would someone be so against war decs from grinds and want there to be more restrictions? perhaps someone that goes around griefs alot and now is getting permadecs on their small sized guild? can't defend yourselves anymore because people hunt you while you're decced? who knows ;)

"I will say again, for the last time. The intention for this is to make "dfs" an official tool with clear rules of engagement and to deal away with all the excuses (dfs made-up rules) and reasons (karmbombing and killstealing) for keeping war decs spammable. Not to give anyone a pve-only spot. Not prevent high gearscore players for turning your character into soil fertilizer. On top of these, having the flag system will finally strip guildless players of their invulnerability-to-wardecs cloak.
Win-win for everyone! Except for a few, select... categories of adventurers, of course. Which the current systems can't handle and are, as such, immune to the consequences of their actions."

I will say again, your suggestion still does not give dfs any "clear rules of engagement" and it does not deal with any of the excuses or reasons to make war decs spammable. if anyone thought this was a suggestion for a pve-only spot then this would have been a 2 post thread with the first reply pointing at PA's offical stance at pve only content.

also even if you say that this isn't "intended" for high gs players to circumvent the karma system, no one wanting to circumvent the karma system would say that their suggestion is for that, and even if you actually don't mean it there are such things as unintended consequences, consequence that you as the poster and suggester are supposed to either explain why it won't be a problem (it will be) or include something in your suggestion to counter the consequence (you have not)

"If you thought the goal of my suggestion is to prevent spots from being contested while you're grind, you are horribly wrong. It's not supposed to ensure you can grind undisturbed till you get bored or uninstall."

and no one should think its to prevent spots from being contested. don't know how you came to that conclusion, but i'm just explaining that if it's 2 evenly matched players and they don't accept the result of the dfs then the same thing will happen with or without your suggestion, making the system either an exploitive system for higher gs players, or completely useless if there isn't a gs difference.

"Also, if evenly matched and both want to grind, they will not do that.  And what if they both run out of karma? Don't you run out of karma now, in that scenario?"

you might not realize this , but this is the actually the problem you are trying to fix with your suggestion. a little hint for you- what happens when "other player isn't satisfied with the outcome". this is and will be true with or without your suggestion.

it's actually crazy you don't realize this yourself. maybe cause the system isn't supposed to be for evenly matched players? i'm not saying anything, but it starts to make sense if you view this suggestion as someone that is at 600-640gs range fighting at a highly contested spot that gives more silver than it should and is very populated with a bunch of players that aren't nearly as geared, like centaurs, but also afraid of being war decced since there are bigger fishes in the sea and getting farmed ;) very sus 

"elaborate on what you mean by this, because both ways i see this is incorrect."

- I meant you can't go placing flags all over the place. You dropped one and, until it expires or is destroyed, you can plant another. It can expire, both at the end of its validity or if you've been away from its zone of influence for 5-10 minutes (however long it is assumed you need to relog after a crash, I'm thinking, not how long it'll take you to afk 2 uber bosses).

- I started the first post mentioning reworks of some zones. It's pretty damn obvious that, for example, planting a flag at Manshaums is not feasible.

"so once again back to my point that this system relys on a change to another part of the game"

Because they're closely connected. War decs over grind spots are the norm, I'm thinking.

"again, explain how you think having a flag down will..."

To make a coffee you need at least two ingredients, ye? Water and coffee. Otherwise you're drinking water or your chewing coffee beans. You keep arguing that coffee beans alone don't make coffee and I keep saying you need water too. After which you tell me to just focus on water if I want a cup of coffee.

"either that completely kills the suggestion because of how absurd it is, or this suggestion hinges on yet another suggestion..."

Between AP caps and PA punishing players for gearing up, pve-wise, I'd say the latter is barely needed too, yes.

"you yourself have no idea on how to change, it hinges on another one that PA has ignored for a while"

There are multiple systems that work together to make the game frustrating. The guidline for suggestions is "stick to one topic". On top of that, I have 0 exp on wars, I marely see posts and complaints about them being abused and guildless players having a free pass at being... disrepectful. I also noticed all suggestions of making it harder to war dec being reasonably countered with the whole dfs/karmaboming argument. Hence, I thought it would be a good starting point.

"so you actually admitted here that if someone doesn't accept the "made up dfs rules" even with your suggestion in place(something you said this would fix), war decs are going to happen(something you said this would fix)"

You quoted my description of what happens now and conflated it with what would happen inside the flagged zone. Cus you see, it's usually the karmabomber getting declared on (and I know cases of 680+ GS player stripping and trying to kb because he lost the fight). And if the person defending doesn't lose karma defending his/her spot, the war dec is avoided"

"also why would someone be so against war decs from grinds and want there to be more restrictions?"

1. 'Cause war decs don't work on guildless players; 2. 'Cause I find the war dec stupid when the cause of it is "You didn't type 'r'"; 3. 'Cause we've been declared once because someone wasn't able to grind on top of me on seasonal channel; 4. 'Cause it's easier to declare than use common sense.

"I will say again, your suggestion still does not give dfs any "clear rules of engagement" and it does not deal with any of the excuses or reasons to make war decs spammable."

We kinda went ahead and tried to refine the idea, between your and Jack's constant flak. But based off of the basic concept, you don't need to request a dfs (to be ignored or refused), don't need to type anything, to negociate what pots one can use, you don't get karmabombed.

Desymoo did bring up some issues, regarding zerging a player under the flag's influence, so it needs more thought. But, eh! Can't do that much, 'cause busy debating from (probably) the same side over its utility. Which would be null, if things would go as Cat said and karmabombing wasn't high fashion.

"you as the poster and suggester are supposed to either explain why it won't be a problem (it will be) or include something in your suggestion to counter the consequence (you have not)"

Could say that I'm rather trying to include everyone in the karma system, especially those that can circumvent the war dec system while abusing the karma one ;)

"it's actually crazy you don't realize this yourself. maybe cause the system isn't supposed to be for evenly matched players?"

Dfs as tool isn't often used by evenly matched players. My only dfs was 2 years ago vs a player ~100GS higher than me, at Pila (I was in pen Turubula he had pen Blackstar). The only other pvp I have experienced was vs a roughly evenly matched player, but there was no dfs at all. We fought, we died, we talked, we complained about drop rates, we "glhf!" each other. 

So yeah, the suggestion isn't fixing the dfs. You won't suddenly get equalized gear while under the influence of the flag. It's aiming at the quirks of this tradition that can lead to gratuitous war decs and which support many of the arguments in favor of keepin the requirements for war decs laxed. More importantly it aims at people that can abuse the karma system without any repercussions.

"but it starts to make sense if you view this suggestion as someone that is at 600-640gs range[...]"

I'm not grinding busy spots and, in the rare situations that I do, I use marni's realm, even on season, because I tend to try and respect the other players' time and space. I don't have preferred rotations, quotas of trash to meet and I'm happily avoiding pvp if I have the option. I for one have, in the current state of the game, absolutely no leg in this race, no need for dfs - with or without some hardcoded mechanics. Lastly - assuming I'll ever unfreeze my gear progression (soon™, as soon as my Black Spirit stops failing every attempt at everything) - I view Arsha as a much better alternative to dfs, even if I currently think you go there when looking for a fight more than for a good grinding session.

"- I meant you can't go placing flags all over the place. You dropped one and, until it expires or is destroyed, you can plant another. It can expire, both at the end of its validity or if you've been away from its zone of influence for 5-10 minutes... feasible."

Neither of these reasons are arguments against my my initial statement to this- "With the benefits of having the flag down, people will drop down a flag even if they will refuse any duels".

With there being only benefits to putting a flag down, even the simple reason of it warning people to not touch the mobs, people that won't duel will put the flag down at a spot they are going to grind. 

the person that don't want to duel don't even have to place a flag down. if they don't place a flag down someone will place a flag while theyre grinding and we're back to having the problem at hand. 

"Because they're closely connected. War decs over grind spots are the norm, I'm thinking."

This doesn't address my points at all. so once again back to my point that this system relys on a change to another part of the game that you self admitted that you have no idea how to change. 

"To make a coffee you need at least two ingredients, ye? Water and coffee. Otherwise you're drinking water or your chewing coffee beans. You keep arguing that coffee beans alone don't make coffee and I keep saying you need water too. After which you tell me to just focus on water if I want a cup of coffee.

you keep saying that you need water but don't explain where or how to get that water. right now you are telling people to just chew coffee beans and wait for someone to find a way to get water because you basically said you don't know how to get water. drinking coffee is a want, drinking water is a need and similarly if war decs aren't changed then this suggestion is without substance. 

and once again you have not answered why your suggestion will fix any of the problems that causes war decs you've posed.

"There are multiple systems that work together to make the game frustrating. The guidline for suggestions is "stick to one topic". On top of that, I have 0 exp on wars, I marely see posts and complaints about them being abused and guildless players having a free pass at being... disrepectful. I also noticed all suggestions of making it harder to war dec being reasonably countered with the whole dfs/karmaboming argument. Hence, I thought it would be a good starting point."

If you read forums enough it's a constant balance between the two and there is no right or wrong- if you look through posts by post reply, you can see that every karma/pvp related thread is basically countered by a pve/no pvp related thread, top 8 threads have 3 for pvp/karma and 3 against pvp/war decs. PvE players will constantly complain about pvp and pvpers will constantly complain about spots being taken by PvErs who wont dfs. who decides a spot should belong to who? does someone get the spot because they are there first? should i deserve a spot because i outgear someone? should someone else deserve a spot because they have pvp buffs and add ons while I have the pve counterpart? because someone plays a more pvp oriented class/a class that counters mine? PAs at a difficult spot because they have stated that they have no intentions of making pve servers, nor are they going to make any drastic changes to karma. 

your suggestion is completely reliant on changes to war decs, there is no questioning that and you have admitted to it yourself. PA have tried to make guild types with undeccable guilds but that was quickly shut down the patch it went into glab, so you have to offer a suggestion and have that implemented first before anything here makes any sense to input other wise again this suggestion will result in nothing.

"You quoted my description of what happens now and conflated it with what would happen inside the flagged zone. Cus you see, it's usually the karmabomber getting declared on (and I know cases of 680+ GS player stripping and trying to kb because he lost the fight). And if the person defending doesn't lose karma defending his/her spot, the war dec is avoided"

so one quote you say you have zero experience on wars, and the other one you say that you think its usually karmabomber getting decced. interesting. 

there is no world where there is no karma loss other than a complete outclass in gear/class. there is no change to what happens when someone is not happy with the result of a duel when they are evenly geared with our without this suggestion. they will grief each other(with a new bonus content of killing a flag and being able to put your own!) , call guildies, and then war dec. 

"1. 'Cause war decs don't work on guildless players; 2. 'Cause I find the war dec stupid when the cause of it is "You didn't type 'r'"; 3. 'Cause we've been declared once because someone wasn't able to grind on top of me on seasonal channel; 4. 'Cause it's easier to declare than use common sense."

1 is circumventing the karma system. there should be some recourse against guildless griefers, but this is not it. 2-4 would still happen under your suggestion.

"We kinda went ahead and tried to refine the idea, between your and Jack's constant flak. But based off of the basic concept, you don't need to request a dfs (to be ignored or refused), don't need to type anything, to negociate what pots one can use, you don't get karmabombed. Desymoo did bring up some issues, regarding zerging a player under the flag's influence, so it needs more thought. But, eh! Can't do that much, 'cause busy debating from (probably) the same side over its utility. Which would be null, if things would go as Cat said and karmabombing wasn't high fashion."

not neededing to request a dfs would mean more excuse of "you didn't type 'r". not need to type anything/negotiating means that people will get mad at some ridiculous dfs rule that they follow but no one else does. ex. suggestion would be useless in the case of a gank where someone pops e buff z buff rushes up and grabs and kills the player and his flag and calls gfs. no one would call that a fair duel. 

no comment on karmabombing because i feel it really only happens at lower end grind zones considering how easy it is feeding players to mobs anything above orcs and at that point you just try to feed each other to mobs while waiting for war dec, and even after war dec you still feed each other to mobs. 

"Could say that I'm rather trying to include everyone in the karma system, especially those that can circumvent the war dec system while abusing the karma one ;)"

so are you admitting that you suggested this so u can abuse a gear advantage, and so that you were lying when you said the system was supposed to "Not prevent high gearscore players for turning your character into soil fertilizer"?considering that quote is in regards to the fact that this will be used high gs players to circumvent the karma system. 

"Dfs as tool isn't often used by evenly matched players. My only dfs was 2 years ago vs a player ~100GS higher than me, at Pila (I was in pen Turubula he had pen Blackstar). The only other pvp I have experienced was vs a roughly evenly matched player, but there was no dfs at all. We fought, we died, we talked, we complained about drop rates, we "glhf!" each other."

cool that you had rather wholesome experience but you are definitely wrong in saying that dfs isn't often used by evenly matched players. realistically the only time you have a huge gear disparity would again be at overtuned spots like centaurs where the silver/hr is better than basically anything you can get below 650gs while the requirement is basically just 190ap. otherwise, it's mostly used by players that are able to kill each other in 1 cc.

... and again here you are basically saying that this is a system for circumventing the karma system. remember when i said "in a clear gear, class, skill disadvantage this is a complete roundabout way to removing karma loss.", and you disagreed? because this is sounding a lot the entire system just sounds like a roundabout way of removing karma loss completely from the game.

"So yeah, the suggestion isn't fixing the dfs. You won't suddenly get equalized gear while under the influence of the flag. It's aiming at the quirks of this tradition that can lead to gratuitous war decs and which support many of the arguments in favor of keepin the requirements for war decs laxed. More importantly it aims at people that can abuse the karma system without any repercussions."

if your suggestion is titled "Make "Duel for spot" a feature" and then later say the suggesting isn't for fixing dfs, there is something wrong. I like the sentiment, but as is the suggestion doesn't do anything regarding the problems that causes war decs without war decs requirements already being changed. the karma system exists as is because PA thinks it's a good idea and while there are a metric ton of flaws, there is a reason it exist and there is no reason to put in something that only have the 2 effects of either completely circumventing it or does nothing regarding it. 

Ugh! The world of BDO becomes horrible when ill intent is the only motivation to play the game... and there are so many gates wide open for both types of buttholes to stride right through.

As you can probably tell by our debate so far, I will not admit to either, as this is not the case.

It's why I brought the suggestion here, so that people that have (had) different experiences that I can help refine it into a better one. It was a damn shame that most of your feedback focused on calling me a liar and abuser and, as such - let's say - tricking me into entering a dumb defensive state (I mean, you stil are, up to this very last post, see above). I'mma work on refining the idea based on Desymoo's feedback and yours (however muddied it got with all the "liar!" accusations :P).

Worth noting that there's a snowflake's chance in hell that one system alone can do away with all issues (digital or otherwise) plaguing this aspect the game and that my hope is that finding and implementing a better regulated way of contesting spots will get the ball rolling into fixing the other aspects too (well, maybe not the personality traits).

This is NOTHING less than a pathetic excuse to REMOVE the Karma System from the game.  You said it YOURSELF

"Preventing 100% karma loss from pvp for the owner and 100% karma loss on kill for the contender:

Do you know WHY Pearl Abyss had to give a 50% loot bonus to Arsha?  Because without a PROPER Karma System it was a DEAD SERVER.  Even the FEW actual PVP players wouldn't go there because it was a toxic mess.

I'm with you on reducing the player base to a minimum to reduce the over crowding.  Your suggestion would certainly have that effect, but it would also mean less updates a smaller staff and shifting even more of their resources to other products.

Your suggestion is to literally kill the game with bad ideas.  Even the MOST HARDCORE PVP games are doing the EXACT opposite of this.  Albion was one of the FEW games to try an open world PVP environment.  IT FAILED miserably.  Now they have SAFE HUNTING zones because the game was on it's last legs heading toward it's grave.

We need Columbo back to spam "Learn to share" all over the forums ;)

You want to turn ALL servers into an Arsha style system despite having NO KNOWLEDGE on IMPORTANT facts such as WITHOUT the 50% drop boost Arsha is BY FAR THE LEAST POPULATED server in the game.  That's pretty damn IMPORTANT TO KNOW.

Except Columba doesnt grief. Unlike someone.