No one is attempting to propose REAL SOLUTIONS.  You see these people are cowards and that's a problem.  That's why no one is proposing the desert jail system through the entire game.  Then you can start suggesting putting players further away from their spawn location or a small respawn delay.   The places WITH that system are the least toxic in the game.

But you DON'T HEAR ANYONE requesting that do you.  You DON'T HEAR them asking to REMAIN flagged.  You DON'T HEAR them asking to be penalized for PKing.  All you hear them saying is how they want to circumvent the karma system so they can ABUSE OTHER players WITHOUT PENALTIES.

And they WILL NOT accept a server that is LITERALLY DESIGNED FOR THEM TO FIGHT FOR SPOTS.

The DESERT JAIL SYSTEM was specifically designed to BE THE PVP ZONES for BDO.

I guess you read my proposals but you suddenly forgot them, right? Jail time is EXACTLY what I proposed for killers several times throughout several topics, as it effectively removes the offender when he gets caught.

But you don't really wanna talk, you simply want complain, right? Give up. 

your entire argument is around the thought that higher geared players are entitled to a spot. why do they deserve the spot over lower geared players? what entitles them ownership over a spot if the player currently grinding there has less gear? again, this seems like you are arguing to create a world where high geared players can can grind basically undisturbed whenever they like.

you say that we can't punish higher geared players for being funneled into lower geared spots. you also can't punish lower geared players for grinding a spot that they should be grinding because higher geared player are funneled into it the spot. in this case it's more unfair to lower geared players at centaur ap because there is limited spots they can grind while players with more gear have access to more spots. 

"Fair point here. Almost. The toxicity over gvgs stems from the conclusion that you put in my mouth, namely "lower geared player disagrees with the result, they should have no recourse as the higher geared player should not lose any karma". Which is exactly what GvG allows for. But the thing is, for me, using GvG to circumvent karma loss is just as much a scum behavior as karmabombing and mob-feeding are. And I'm not really convinced that PA's design has them as intended systems."

there is nothing wrong with calling a higher geared friend/guildie to help you get a spot. and again, even with the implementation of your suggestion the dfs > war dec >gvg cycle would only increase, with the only recourse now for the lower geared player to call a buddy over which would result in the other guy calling their buddy over which turns to a gvg, a self fulfilling prophecy.

"A guild with 3 Tuvala users has no recourse in such a scenario anyway."

so what is this guild with 3 tuvala users supposed to do in this case? accept getting bullied out of their spot over and over so they quit the game? again you are completely alienating a portion of the population and end up harming the game state.

"using GvG to circumvent karma loss is just as much a scum behavior as karmabombing and mob-feeding are. And I'm not really convinced that PA's design has them as intended systems."

there is a difference between a war dec and a gvg, and even then there is a 15 minute dec timer while there is no timer for karmabombing and mob-feeding. pve, karma, war dec, guild types are in a very delicate balance and you can't seem to wrap your head around the fact the game don't just revolve around players with higher gear. 

also it's not just an intended system, gvg is a recognized system- you can request guild points for attending gvgs. 

So many truth bombs going off here.  Don't worry the forum warriors will not address or acknowldge any of the issues.

"so what is this guild with 3 tuvala users supposed to do in this case? accept getting bullied out of their spot over and over so they quit the game? again you are completely alienating a portion of the population and end up harming the game state."

Most of these proposals would literally destroy the game brining it back to the low poplution BDO had when there was a 1% penalty for exp loss.  They literally want to turn the game into an unsustainable hostile environement because they don't give a $%$%$ about ANYONE ELSE.

"your entire argument is around the thought that higher geared players are entitled to a spot"

These entitled cup cakes actualkly DO believe that.  Except they need a system that is tweaked and BROKEN in their favor.  Hence the reason Arsha does not resolve this.  These peole are NOT capable of bullying people out of Arsha, thus they want another to do it.

"why do they deserve the spot over lower geared players? what entitles them ownership over a spot if the player currently grinding there has less gear?"

This one is simple ignorant children don't have a comprehension of "others".  It's acceptable for a 2-5 year old.  They literally lack the capacity to understand an issue like this.  It's not acceptable that people that should be over the age of 18 still don't comprehend this.

I want to see both Harth and Pearl Abyss try to address those real issues.  Pearl Abyss and others have this false impression that BDO is a MOBA.  Where you just go around fighting all the time as a normal part of the game.  A giant Shadow Arena.  The game FUNDAMENTALLY will NEVER succeed with such a system.

Even the PVPers keep complaining about Arsha because it's to disruptive.  Most of these people are blatantly lying and that is their agenda.  They want EZ mode to push out players whenever they feel like it.  They just don't want the consequences that go along with that or to grasp the concept that PVP MMO's are about VERY LIMITED open world PVP.  You don't go around destroying the game world.

In Ashes of Creation the PKer will continue to get weaker each PK.  Thus making this type of situation much more difficult.  Including the fact that the penalties for dying will be harsher.  It's on a road to failure as that will innevitably create a toxic unsustainable mess too.  Because they are encouraging PK by forcing penalties upon victims.  Then at the same time claiming they will ban players for griefing.  What a brilliant concept to burn the game into the ground :)

I think you're misunderstanding. As was stated multiple times by the OP, the idea is simply to keep players from abusing war decs to circumvent the karma system. If you read through the idea: *any* player that tries to pk someone while under their flag would recieve twice the amount of karma loss that they do now, and they would have to take this penalty multiple times to take the flag down. DFS would still remain an option for those that were willing to participate, with much clearer rules in place, but could no longer be forced on anyone without severe penalties. So maybe the title of the post is a little misleading at this point? I'm not sure, don't want to put words in OP's mouth :)
 

As for these increased restrictions on war decs that would be required to make this system work... Honestly? Make players immune to war while within the radius of their flags. Sounds a little crazy and probably *highly* susceptible to exploit (would have to be carefully tested), but seeing as flags could only be used at the grind zone they were purchased at, seems pretty safe to me. This would move the concept of GvG entirely away from petty 1v1s - where guilds are always saving an open war slot to quickly lock down a solo grind spot if needed - and more into the realm of actual territory war. Now you can have longterm wars going with rival guilds in which you are both sending people out on patrol to keep each other from planting flags, rather than constantly being forced to dec so that one of your guildies can properly defend themselves while grinding.

Might honestly provide the objective-based opPvP that this game so desperately needs.

You're throwing, at times, counterarguments for the sake of throwing counterarguments, even when they fly in the face of previous counterarguments. Here's an example:

Me: "A guild with 3 Tuvala users has no recourse in such a scenario anyway."

You: so what is this guild with 3 tuvala users supposed to do in this case? accept getting bullied out of their spot over and over so they quit the game? again you are completely alienating a portion of the population and end up harming the game state.

right after you said this:
Me: "But the thing is, for me, using GvG to circumvent karma loss is just as much a scum behavior as karmabombing and mob-feeding are. And I'm not really convinced that PA's design has them as intended systems."

You: there is nothing wrong with calling a higher geared friend/guildie to help you get a spot.

You rely on calling a guildie to start a war to deal with the problem, right after implying a small guild can only rely on karmabombing or quit the game.

Are you roleplaying 2 ppl at the same time? One in favour of karmabombing, one of gvg over petty things? :D

"also it's not just an intended system, gvg is a recognized system- you can request guild points for attending gvgs"

You're going on tangents. While every bit you say make sense on its own, the overall picture that forms is blurry at, unless the answer to the above question is "yes".

It's bad to circumvent karma system in one way, but in another way it is not. It's bad to karmabomb, until it ain't. War decs are good, until they're not, cus you can't do much as a small guild. GvG is a system that reward mob-feeding, but only if it's a gvg. It's a mess that, you're right, I can't wrap my head around. 

Lastly, you literally take every aspect in a vacuum, up to the point where we should all start building a platinum statue to the savior of all spot contests, the might war dec... Every aspect is bad, every aspect is countered by the other aspect, but official war decs counter everything and fix everything. So let's just leave it at that.

I can't really say your having neither a hill to stand on, nor interested in improving the concept. Because, again, the conclusion I draw from all your criticism is that 1) karmabombing is good. 2) mob-feeding is good. 3) war dec spam is best. 4) all the systems exist and function as intended and there can be no better way. So I am sorry, but I'm tired of being put against the wall each time by your "you're too dumb to understand that X is better than Y which is better than X" tirade. Thanks! 

Maybe a bit misleading, because I see "DFS" as the main catalyst for war decs. So for me, the two are umbilically connected, no matter how hard Asd is trying to keep the malfunctioning systems separate. Grind spot rewards, war decs and karma dodging are intertwined.

I also suggested, I think, that the flag system could take priority over outstanding guild conflicts, if it proves to be a functional game mechanic, so that, when a big guild decides to war dec a small one out of spots, they'll still have to deal with at least the - mostly meaningless - karma penatly. And the mob-feeding could also be kinda prevented, unless, ofc the attacker is on a zerk, grabs the defender and runs with it in a pack of mobs outside the grind zone :D

I tried to find value in Asd's critique, but I gave up now. Then again, I'm kinda giving up on the whole idea of "Adventurer's Feeback Board". As PA seems to not care actually about community input. Not if the actual work requires more than changing a few values. Maybe out of fear they break something else and have to pretend nothing happen for the next 2 years (like it's the case with the LoD and textures) </rant>

"You rely on calling a guildie to start a war to deal with the problem, right after implying a small guild can only rely on karmabombing or quit the game."

right now the smaller guild at least has one form of protection, which is also counteracted by another form of aggression of mob feeding. under your suggestion, they have zero protection, while still being suceptible to being fed to mobs. realize that "griefing" comes in many forms and has different meaning to different people. "griefing" may be from one player trying to protect their spot from someone trying to karmabomb them out of the spot, another may be one person trying to protect their spot from someone trying to feed them to mobs while having higher gear so you can't fight back. time and time again you demonstrate that you are incapable of seeing things from another prespective.

"Are you roleplaying 2 ppl at the same time? One in favour of karmabombing, one of gvg over petty things? :D"

if you call being able to look at things from muliple perpectives "roleplaying", then sure. if you can't "roleplay", really you don't deserve to make suggestions because you fail to see the impact things you suggest has on players other than yourself. though at this point with you saying that you have only dfsed once, you probably don't even know impact what your own suggestion has on yourself. 

"You're going on tangents. While every bit you say make sense on its own, the overall picture that forms is blurry at, unless the answer to the above question is "yes"

again you failed to see the bigger picture. war dec and gvg are 2 different things. gvgs can happen because of war decs, but not all war decs lead to gvgs. you question whether gvg is an intended mechanic in the game. it is not only intended, it's been recognized by PA as an offical activity in the game. 

also realize that even if i don't have an overall picture, i don't need to have one. it's your job as the suggestion poster to keep your overall picture in tact while countering my points which you have failed time and time again to address, and have dodged multiple times from not answering how this suggestion would fix what creates toxic pvp via war decs, to not answering why you seem to think the world should revolve around players with higher gear. 

"It's bad to circumvent karma system in one way, but in another way it is not. It's bad to karmabomb, until it ain't. War decs are good, until they're not, cus you can't do much as a small guild. GvG is a system that reward mob-feeding, but only if it's a gvg. It's a mess that, you're right, I can't wrap my head around. "

not surprised that you can't wrap your head around it. i've said again again- owpvp in game is in a balance between the karma system and war dec system. both have limits. there are war dec restrictions in place so you can't dec certain guilds to grief them. there is a dec timer so you can't just dec someone straight away to circumvent the karma system, and this timer used to be the channel change cooldown to disincentivize people from just deccing someone from their spot. players also can't kill someone over and over again because of the karma system. 

yes, at every level there is some form of abuse allowed with undeccable guilds, karmabombing, mob feeding but your suggestion not only does not address most of these forms of abuse- gvgs and mob feeding will still happen regardless-, it allows for even more abuse- higher geared players can bully lower end players out of their spot.

"Lastly, you literally take every aspect in a vacuum, up to the point where we should all start building a platinum statue to the savior of all spot contests, the might war dec... Every aspect is bad, every aspect is countered by the other aspect, but official war decs counter everything and fix everything. So let's just leave it at that."

again and again, i've counteracted your points with how it affects current systems already in game. the tl;dr of this is that your suggestion fixes nothing, and only gives more power to players that don't need it.

"I can't really say your having neither a hill to stand on, nor interested in improving the concept. Because, again, the conclusion I draw from all your criticism is that 1) karmabombing is good. 2) mob-feeding is good. 3) war dec spam is best. 4) all the systems exist and function as intended and there can be no better way. So I am sorry, but I'm tired of being put against the wall each time by your "you're too dumb to understand that X is better than Y which is better than X" tirade. Thanks! "

Page 5 you also said that "I for one have, in the current state of the game, absolutely no leg in this race, no need for dfs" so clearly you don't have a hill to stand on either.

1,2,3,4- 4 really addresses 1 2 and 3 but currently the system currently in place is bad but your suggestion as is again not only doesn't do anything to fix the systems in place, but introduces something else that can be used to grief. 

It's not that you're too dumb to understand things, but you have demonstrated time and time again that you don't seem to be able to look at the bigger picture and see how one thing will affect another, while not being able to look at things from another perspective. You have also failed to address most of the problems that you imposed yourself, while continually digging yourself into a hole where you alienate the more vulnerable players that are more willing to quit the game. 

"I can't really say your having neither a hill to stand on, nor interested in improving the concept."

It's your job to improve the concept, not mine. My role is to offer criticism and point out flaws with your suggestion- spoiler alert there are lots. This suggestion don't affect me in any way so it's not entire unfalse to say that I don't have a hill to stand on, but it's not hard to see that this is and will be a bad thing for the game. You also clearly don't have a hill to stand on either - "I for one have, in the current state of the game, absolutely no leg in this race, no need for dfs - with or without some hardcoded mechanics. "

I will summarize most of the points I made against you here, since you have clearly given up on trying to improve your suggestion and would rather listen to people that would support you than the critics. don't blame you though- a castle build on sand is not a good one. 

1. You pose this as a solution to players to war deccing, but you never explain how you fix the problems. 

   a. You get war dec'ed for refusing a duel.

   b. You get war dec'ed for not having said "r".

   c. You get war dec'ed for using potions during a duel.

   d. You get war dec'ed if you refuse a rematch.

   e. You get war dec'ed if the other player isn't satisfied with the outcome and intends to feed you to the mobs later down the line.

   ALL of these will still happen under your suggested change. I have challenged all of these claims and you have dodged time and time again to comment/ counter any points, while also never explaining how these are fixed.

2. You say that this system isn't "This isn't supposed to deal with overpowering opponents" yet turn your back and then say that you think dfs is usually between 2 players of vastly different gear. while this isn't the case in the game, this means that you want to systemize something that a higher geared player can use to bully and grief lower end players out of their grinding spot, regardless of any other circumstances. 

3. You said time and time again that circumventing the karma is bad, but either you refuse to understand - or pretend not to- that you are suggesting something to circumvent the karma system. You support the fact that this is a way to circumvent the karma system by saying that equal geared players wont use dfs -and by extension this system- so the flag will not be destroyed and replaced incurring any karma change, so it will be used by someone with higher gear who can protect their flag to not lose any karma while killing lower geared player with disregard.

   You also chose to reply to my comment about this with snark instead of actually answering it. Not surprised though, just another dodged question in a seemingly neverending list.

4. You never addressed the form of abuse that your suggestion can incur. I pointed out that someone with higher gear can just waltz into a zone that a lower geared player is currently grinding and kill them and their flag with whatever restrictions you place on the killing the flag then drop their flag. The only recourse for a lower geared player here is to call a guildie over to defend his spot, which circles us back to point 1. 

5. You seem to think that higher gear means you are entitled to a spot. again I will ask- why do they deserve the spot over lower geared players? what entitles them ownership over a spot if the player currently grinding there has less gear? how do you decide who "owns" the current grind spot?

6. You seem to not be able to see the bigger picture, and can't see things from another perspective. You can assume things about people, but if they say it straight up then there is no reason to assume. Direct quotes from you-

   a. "on top of that, I have 0 exp on wars," 

   b, "My only dfs was 2 years ago vs a player ~100GS higher than me, at Pila (I was in pen Turubula he had pen Blackstar). The only other pvp I have experienced was vs a roughly evenly matched player"

You have zero experience with wars. You have dfsed once. You have PVPed twice total in your total gameplay. The entire basis of your suggestion lies things otherplayers have said, which you also failed in by only taking in testimoney from one side. You probably just looked at the front page, saw that there was one thread that was popular about fixing karmabombing and didn't do any research whatsoever since you don't think there is another side to the story, a side that you have time and time again disregarded even when bougnt up.

Again, I'm not against dfs as a system as a whole. I think the current owpvp is very flawed as well. What I am against is what you are trying to suggest, because it doesn't do anything but create more problems and instead of addressing the problems you just seem to want to ignore it. Instead of arguing for your suggestion you would rather point your finger somewhere else, deflect, and blame PA for your problems.

The penalty would have to be less than 300k karma total to take down a flag otherwise this suggestion would make no sense. In this case, then we circle back to war decs being a problem because the solution would be to call a more geared friend/guildie to kill him and take down his flag and we are back to the beginning, except the aggressor now has lower karma.

Otherwise we run into the problem of this being a suggestion to circumvent karma which the poster is against. 

Yea the immune to war thing would never work. in the case there was a war then send 1 geared player in or send the guild in and kill the flag and we are back to square one

Don't mind Lhh / Retteo / Vortexxii / Two Cents / whatever else now-banned name this dude has used on BDO forums, he didn't drink his pills this morning. 

This new, unlinked and hidden account will be banned again if he keeps up his normal shenanigans.  Probably be back with a new unlinked account, though.  KEKW