Grabs are a win button and have ruined PVP for far too long
Jan 21, 2023, 11:38 (UTC)
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Last Edit :
Jan 23, 2023, 08:17 (UTC)
# 61
On: Jan 23, 2023, 07:51 (UTC), Written by Minarya
+ 100 on that.
When it was still viable to actually CC people in normal fighting without a grab, the importance of a grab was still high, but it wasnt a "win button" because a lot of other CCs managed to get through. But with the abundance of Super Armor, especially the passive kind like Striker / Guardian / Sage / Nova, where SA is applied during skills that normally do not have it, normal CC attempts are rarely leading to any success.
Nowadays, even Frontal Guard basically counts as not protected because of the abundance of skills that goes through Frontals or casts behind them, which is another big issue of the current game. If it wasn's as easy to ignore frontals, there would be less crying about getting more SA skills.
Due to all that, most of PvP nowadays is either trading each other to death, or the one with a grab wins. But the way to solve this is not to remove grabs. That would just lead to a different kind of imbalance, where iframes and mobility and damage make up the entire PvP scene. The better way to solve this would be to remove a lot of the SA protections, maybe replace some with FG, and also remove a lot of behind FG CCs, and protected CCs. Turn down damage so not everybody blows up in 2 seconds flat, and then look at which matchups are still heavily favoured towards one class and go from there.
In my opinion, the current state of things is just not healthy and also unfun. When most classes have overpowered mechanics, PvP becomes less about skill, and more about rotating the same buttons in a row and hoping for a lucky catch.
you seem to have understood exactly what the right approach would be:
- turn alot of currently superarmor protected moves into frontal guard protected moves instead or straight up remove protection at least partially from some of them to enable very clear and obvious options of getting CCs on people without requiring a grab.
- simultaneously get rid of abilities that can apply CC through frontal guard straight up from the front or at least make those skills high risk by making them unprotected if you do intend on keeping their ability to go through FG from the front. (spiral torpedo esque abilities come to mind but ALSO things like hashashins ranged stiff that summons tornados behind peoples FG is far too low risk due to it having very high range.)
- increase the tankiness of people whilst they are not in a CCd state to disincentivize very shallow trade gameplay, make sure that CCing and proper use of special attack modifiers really matter when it comes to dealing damage in pvp.
Last Edit :
Jan 23, 2023, 08:29 (UTC)
# 62
On: Jan 22, 2023, 23:52 (UTC), Written by A72391
I think those are good suggestions. But I would go farther to balance that abomination of a skill which is the grab. I don't feel like hitting a CC limit by using grab would be enough since once the grab is landed it often doesn't take a lot to just blast the enemy's hp down to 0 even without followup CC's. I am speaking of course about high-end gear here since this doesn't apply in AOS. But even if it doesn't kill the enemy, the mere fact of doing essentially free undeserved damage even if it doesn't kill the enemy is still highly unfair and undeserved, and will likely end up in victory for the grabber anyway. This is why I don't think changing the CC limit for grabs would change much. Grabs would still remain high/medium reward and low risk.
But I have various suggestions that can address the problem with grabs across all gear levels. I am of the idea that it should not go through SA or FG to begin with, it should not be a joker card that will work against anything, something like that should not exist in pvp to begin with. But alternatively, if it does go through SA/FG then it should be made like in other games, where instantaneously casting grabs dont get the benefit to combo off them, so BDO could implement this by also giving an ap/accuracy debuff to the person that lands the grab so that they do severely less damage with their skills. Something like a simultaneous -50%AP and -50% accuracy debuff to the grab caster for like say 6-7 seconds. This is an example of a good tradeoff balance to a grab, were the enemy gets interrupted from their skill but it's not an instant win button for the grab caster. This would turn grab into a low risk low reward skill.
A solution I like too is make classes without a grab fully immune to grabs. Now that would be a proper way to balance those that have grabs vs those that don't. Grab then becomes just another skill for those who have it and don't have it alike, distributing the unfairness equally among all classes.
Another way that is sort of my favorite bc of how satisfying it would be to watch, is make every grab have a casting with an obvious animation of say one full second or 1.5 secs, and if the enemy reacts to the grab on time, either by dodging it or by some new counter skill to grab like grab-break, then the grabber gets the tables turned on him and it's the grabber himself that gets self-CC'd by means of a knockdown. This would make grab still high reward but high risk.
We could also give grabs to every class. this is my least favorite since I think grab is super anti-competittive and should not exist in it's current form. I much prefer the option of just making grab not go through CC and SA, i.e. turn it into a low risk low reward skill. This is probably the easiest solution to implement for the developer, requireing the least effort.
What cannot be overstated though is that something needs to change with grabs in BDO, it cannot go on existing in its current state.
It is so obvious how you argument from the PoV of a sorc and mainly to benefit a sorc. One of the biggest counters to sorc is to make her use up all her stamina and thus become vulerable. What kind of skills does sorc use, if her stamina is low? Right, FG and mainly SA skills.
I mean, what would we do if a sorc finally runs out of stamina and then just casts cartian nightmare, dealing insane dmg and at the same time being protected? Right, you can't do anything but run, let her regen her stamina and then the chase begins again. At most you can try to do an sa/fg dmg trade, but sorc will just iframe away until she is full hp anyways.
Grabs are fine right now. The only thing that should be changed or looked at is the range of some of those grabs. They should be melee and in real grabbing range. So ranged grabs, like lahn, nova or corsair need to change and also the hitbox of some other grabs, like mystic, warrior or so need to be a bit smaller. That's all that needs to change and none of that bs you talk about.
Last Edit :
Jan 23, 2023, 14:30 (UTC)
# 63
grabs are fine if u play class that has kit to avoid them and to keep moving.
if u dont and basically every skill glues you to the spot for quite some time....
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Lv 66
Seeryus
Last Edit :
Jan 23, 2023, 17:29 (UTC)
# 64
Grabs are I win buttons for lazy morons, they can argue all day how you can avoid them, but refuse to tell you why they are to unskilled to cc you with a float, kd, knockback,stun,stiff, ect, because those take more effort and planning to land and actually combo off of. Most of these kids would suddenly find their class unplayable if they didn't have their I win button. So many mmos with great pvp have existed with out grab, this game has such a fun combat system that gets cut off at the knees anytime someone lands grab. Everyone should have grab or no one at all, everyone should also have the exact same grab as some grabs are clearly easier to land than others. Again you will never get an honest explantion why they feel they can't live with out grab, but we all know the truth why the people that love them love them, they suck and they are lazy and having to put an real effort to learn the depth of your class as well as the classes you face scares most people because most of them have trouble remembering their own phone numbers let alone mechanics from a video game.
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Severina_Sol
Last Edit :
Jan 24, 2023, 17:54 (UTC)
# 65
Coming from archer main can't say I like grabs although they should give archer a grab. But at least there is a counter to Sorceress not that it matters as Sorceress can just stack some evasion easily and be absolutely unkillable with 10% passive and at least 15% evasion on skill not to mention access to the best evasion off hand which is a joke and PA blatantly trolling us.
I see sorc in rbf every day and often takes 15 people over 10 minutes to take them down I don't need to pull up videos we ALL know it's the case. And STILL sorcs keep getting buffs it's hilarious at this point
Sorceress is the most overpowered class in the history of games.
And sorcs has the audacity to come in here and try nerf other classes EVEN more.
DISGUSTING!!!
I do feel grabs should should have a sequence of inputs to pull off not just one button, I remember back in the day warrior had to change stance then grab and back to awakening for damage that took some skill to aim and time right
Last Edit :
Jan 24, 2023, 18:06 (UTC)
# 66
I keep saying, either remove all grabs from the game or give every single class in the game a grab.
Last Edit :
Jan 25, 2023, 08:21 (UTC)
# 67
Honestly the only people disagreeing with this post either play a grab class or never played any other fighting game. Yes there are ways to counter grab (Iframe) but just having a grab is so much pressure for FREE. A good warrior can get a tamer or ranger to burn their entire i frame combo by literally standing near them.
Lets not even get into desync, the amount of times I have grabbed people out of i frames definitely tops the amount of people that I framed my Grabs.
I mean there really is nothing to argue here, grabs are 100% a broken skill in the game, but the problem is how to fix it. Unfortunetly grab classes are designed around their grab. Most (not all) have far less Cc's or protected cc's in their kit due to having a grab. But then adding protected ccs into these kits if their grab was much weaker could make things even worse.
I think the first step is to make grab much more punished if it misses. I mean its really not even funny that some classes like striker are REWARDED for missing grab (i frame backwards), If you're gonna have such a strong tool, you better make sure you dont miss it.
Beyond that, the animation for some of these grabs need to be slowed down. In aos for example, some of these insta grabs just wins you rounds and matches. Grabs like zerkers actually force some counterplay as they stand still for a little sacraficing some hp to get the grab off.
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LlamaBolt
Last Edit :
Jan 25, 2023, 11:32 (UTC)
# 68
No, grabs should not be removed. What should be removed is the constant protection on most classes that give the ones with grab an upper hand. I mean, classes with grab don't need to wait and pray for the opponent to slip up or know their opponents' entire kit, animation with animation, to know when they may land a cc of their own. They just literally need to wait for their grab to come out of cooldown. And well, some classes wait very little (looking at you, zerkers and strikers!)
Last Edit :
Jan 25, 2023, 18:32 (UTC)
# 69
The amount of copium in this thread is overdose worthy.
Last Edit :
Jan 26, 2023, 12:12 (UTC)
# 70
On: Jan 25, 2023, 18:32 (UTC), Written by Yber
The amount of copium in this thread is overdose worthy.
Thanks for the irrelevant input.
This is not about copiates.. it's about being realistic, PA ain't removing grabs, but they should be adjusted
Like I mentioned grabs should be harder to pull off no hotbars no quick slots no 1 button to victory..
This could be a happy medium..
Several inputs for a grab for example: Shift, 'F' and right mouse button simultaneously to engage a grab(or any combination or more complex), and more of a penalty if you don't succeed, if they get the grab good for them but will give more of a chance to counter
Not that PA will implement this but just wanted to put it out there
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