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UTC 16 : 10 Apr 22, 2024
CEST 18 : 10 Apr 22, 2024
PDT 9 : 10 Apr 22, 2024
EDT 12 : 10 Apr 22, 2024
#Suggestions
Dodge rate (evasion) limits for simpler balancing
Apr 19, 2023, 16:18 (UTC)
1903 36
Last Edit : Apr 23, 2023, 00:16 (UTC)
# 31
On: Apr 22, 2023, 16:47 (UTC), Written by GodSlinger

Speaking from someone who is 734 GS, whose gear costs 1.13T including caphras and has DR at 587, I can confidently tell you 3 things.

1. It doesnt cost as much silver to get evasion as it does to get accuracy

2. I get blown up by people who have 294 AP in one combo

3. To get to 600 DR you heavily need to cut AP, which evasion does as well, but ultimately you end up with an evasion player you cannot hit compared to that player being able to hit you.

So either you are wildly wrong, or the damage is way to much for evasion players to have, or DR just sucks so bad.

I think we can both agree PA Has done a great job at mismanaging these things.

One player with the same AP can get CC'd and die, where as the other can get CC'd and live.

1. It does, if not more. Yes, if you look at 1 point evasion vs 1 point accuracy, maybe. But 1 point accuracy is worth more than 1 point evasion and you get a lot of accuracy for free without tradeoffs, accuracy accessories are not required.

600b silver build with an accuracy offhand & lightstone swap will reach 1050+ accuracy, while maintaining enough AP to onecombo 1300 evasion players.

2. Yeah, that's part of what I ment with broken AP brackets. AP vs DR dynamic is off but if they buff dmg reduction they buff evasion even more than they buff DR players. But to be fair, 294 AP is not a good metric as that doesn't say much about total AP, could be full human dmg.

3. Symptom of point 2. Idealy if someone drops to 269-285 AP to build more defensively, it should be impossible to onecombo 401+ DP. Also there should be DP brackets past 401 DP but again, that would buff evasion even more.

Yes, evasion if more effective defensively than DR, because evasion benefits from DR while DR builds gain nothing from evasion. The problem is that AP is even easier to build than accuracy and there is no downside to giving up AP after 301+ brackets for accuracy. Like you said, they messed up.

The only way I see them fixing any of this is by increasing DP brackets to require people to build higher AP values to onecombo people at higher gear levels, effectively creating a downside to dropping AP. They would then need to add negative evasion to DR options that evasion players can't use DR to the same effectiveness as DR builds. That would fix the dynamic between the stats but on the other hand it would worsen the gear gap in the game.

Last Edit : Apr 23, 2023, 00:25 (UTC)
# 32
On: Apr 22, 2023, 23:11 (UTC), Written by TitanOfWar

24 ticks per second is really low especially for a fast paced game  even CSGO is in the 60s now days

24 tick per second means a worst case of 41.6ms delay on the server. Your brain can not even process such small time frame.

FPS games are different, as bullets do travell at extreme speeds (1000m/s+) while having extremely small target to hit, so unless it uses some simple hit testing like hitscan, then you do need high tickrate to have the hits register correctly.

But in bdo every ability have extremely large hitbox, and the game is not that fast as a bullet is... there is multiple digits difference. That 41.6ms worst case scenario, even with an added ~20ms network delay (yeah if PA would not uses the cheapest servers they can get it could have this low latency) it would be very hard to hit a gap there.

Currently depending on situation there is up to 300-400ms delay in bdo rn, which is clearly noticable even by a naked eye. And this usually varies depending on the area's population so mostlikely the servers can't handle the load. Altrough in bdo combat is partly client side, so your character do the animations before the servers even aware of that, which partly hides this delay, on the otherhand it cuts off the extra animation time on other players to "fix" the potato servers, which makes these players look faster than they actually is.

244 4634
Lv 63
Hnnie
Last Edit : Apr 23, 2023, 01:22 (UTC)
# 33
On: Apr 23, 2023, 00:16 (UTC), Written by ItWasDsyncIswear

Yes, evasion if more effective defensively than DR, because evasion benefits from DR while DR builds gain nothing from evasion. The problem is that AP is even easier to build than accuracy and there is no downside to giving up AP after 301+ brackets for accuracy. Like you said, they messed up.

The only way I see them fixing any of this is by increasing DP brackets to require people to build higher AP values to onecombo people at higher gear levels, effectively creating a downside to dropping AP. They would then need to add negative evasion to DR options that evasion players can't use DR to the same effectiveness as DR builds. That would fix the dynamic between the stats but on the other hand it would worsen the gear gap in the game.

Part of the issue is also that many classes simply do not scale effectively with one defensive stat or the other, when the class-to-class damage multipliers should be the main thing responsible for this type of PVP tankiness disparity, rather than the classes' individual compatibility with the defensive stat they're prioritizing. DR-only classes will always get minimal returns from evasion or hybrid defense builds, but evasion classes in evasion or hybrid builds always benefit from both the base PEN+ defensive gear DR values and the 401+DP %DR bracket bonus, in addition to their high evasion values forcing their opponents to trade accuracy for AP. DR classes in DR builds do not get any sort of %bonus bracket for their evasion stat, so you can always AP monkey to beat DR if your class doesn't automatically lose the matchup. If everyone gets 30% post-calculation damage reduction on hit, the classes that can dodge more hits entirely because their class passives are suited to evasion benefit more from what's left over being mitigated by DR and then rendered 30% weaker. Valkyries are basically the only exception to DR being too weak to be useful in endgame PVP, but a great deal of that comes yet again from their class passives and mechanics. High Passive DR, Very strong Qblock, and the ability to heal themselves and boost their own DR at critical moments. Shai got its tank builds deleted from the game entirely, Warrior had its ability to chain-buff its own DR completely removed from its kit and received virtually no compensation in overall defensive power, and Succession Nova has been reduced in the eyes of the community to an R/C auto-battler that gets deleted by classes with built-in guard break.

I've said to friends for years that the way to correctly balance this game in terms of PVE/PVP and DR/Evasion is to make DR/AP a PVE-only stat calculation and Evasion/Accuracy a PVP-only stat calculation, move all the class passives to offensive stats and base health pools to determine given classes' tankiness, and your gear matters more than your class, and then let the developers utilize the class multipliers and per-skill damage adjustments as the actually intended tools through which PVP is balanced once the actual math has been stabilized. DP/Hybrid accessories would still serve as a valuable tradeoff of Defense for Damage, because in a split system like that they would still be the only way to reach the upper boundaries of defensive stats. In a game with collision detection, forward guard, and invincibility frames, you don't *really* need to be rolling the dice to see if an attack misses a target whose hitbox it collides with when they aren't in a protection. Many, many MMOs have PVE and PVP gear that are separated, and early on that was how greens in BDO were balanced. Blackstars being PVE-oriented are indicative of yellow boss gear being PVP-oriented, but that isn't their actual function. Evasion is applying a weird secondary layer of subjective class-based math on top of a poorly maintained equation for AP and damage reduction, and the complications they've layered over each other over time have gotten worse through the years by making Evasion the primary point of gains in post-pen progression. 650-730gs most of what you gain is evasion accuracy and HP regardless of what you're putting caphras in.

The late/endgame/gearchecking evasion issue could be simplified for both the developers and the players, and subsequently made way easier for them to adjust on the fly in the small weekly increments that they are already clearly fond of by making evasion yellows the PVP gear, DR yellows the Jack of all Trades gear, and Blackstars the PVE gear. That still allows Labreska and Fallen God to function as allrounders, and would make your choice for Dahn's Gloves spec and the eventual Slumbering Origin Boots spec to be less dictated by your class and how deep into endgame you are, and more dictated by your preferred selection of content. They could rip out all of the defensive passives from the classes, rely on the more basic multiplier numbers, and tune everything without having to worry about balancing 4 stats and a percentage against each other, and focus on 2 stats for PVE, 2 stats for PVP, with just the HP pool and Class/Damage Multipliers as the tuning dials once the new standard is resolved.

Barring that, the next most acceptable move for them to make is change the DP brackets' bonus from universally being % DR to being % Evasion if you're mostly in evasion gear, and then rebalance the math around that. forcing Evasion classes to use their Flat DR (negligible), Flat Evasion, and % Evasion, while DR classes use their Flat Evasion (Negligible), Base DR, and % DR, at very least the experience will be more consistent.

Last Edit : Apr 23, 2023, 10:34 (UTC)
# 34
On: Apr 23, 2023, 01:22 (UTC), Written by HeliosVengeance

Valkyries are basically the only exception to DR being too weak to be useful in endgame PVP, but a great deal of that comes yet again from their class passives and mechanics. High Passive DR, Very strong Qblock, and the ability to heal themselves and boost their own DR at critical moments.

This is not true tho. All shield classes can build DR effectively + any other classes with high HP pool, DR buffs, heals etc...

DR is the same as eva from this sense. Both stats scale exponentially, so classes who have buffs, passives, base stats from these can build them better.

Also valk ain't even have the strongest Qblock in the game, nor the highest DR. The main reason why Valk is the FOTM, since she deals more damage than a full AP built assasin classes, despite building defensively, a.k.a balance issue.

If PA devs would not be totally incompetent in their job and they would actually care to fix their game, they would nerf these classes damage, so they could not deal noticable damage while ruining DP builds, but unfortunetly the devs don't care, heck they actually do the opposite and buffs classes that can already do heavy damage with joke AP, just look at how they buffed the striker even more on GL...

244 4634
Lv 63
Hnnie
Last Edit : Sep 10, 2023, 11:57 (UTC)
# 35

I think a player shouldn't be forced to have to swap multiple weapons and accessories for specific enemy player build its retarded this kind of gameplay completely unbalances everything they tried to balance based on endgame gear, why am I unable to one tap an evasion character, but he can one tap my dr character with similar ap dp? Those saying evasion is balanced, why is that you get extra 30% damage reduction from gear when you're using evasion build dont tell me thats balanced to you.. you are just enjoying tanking everyones attacks untill someone who had enough and swap weapons come along and is only able to kill you and no one else wich means he will get cc by someone and killed.. Ok one last let me ask you evasion guys do cc work when you miss? oh! it doesn't? argument over.  remore acc adn evasion from teh game this is trash on a action mmorpg with iframes and bunch protections.

Last Edit : Sep 10, 2023, 15:20 (UTC)
# 36
On: Sep 10, 2023, 11:56 (UTC), Written by Riddletold

I think a player shouldn't be forced to have to swap multiple weapons and accessories for specific enemy player build its retarded this kind of gameplay completely unbalances everything they tried to balance based on endgame gear, why am I unable to one tap an evasion character, but he can one tap my dr character with similar ap dp? Those saying evasion is balanced, why is that you get extra 30% damage reduction from gear when you're using evasion build dont tell me thats balanced to you.. you are just enjoying tanking everyones attacks untill someone who had enough and swap weapons come along and is only able to kill you and no one else wich means he will get cc by someone and killed.. Ok one last let me ask you evasion guys do cc work when you miss? oh! it doesn't? argument over.  remore acc adn evasion from teh game this is trash on a action mmorpg with iframes and bunch protections.

my guy, CCs work even when a hit is evaded..........

Last Edit : Sep 10, 2023, 19:12 (UTC)
# 37

yes please rework evasion

Just throw them to a different bracket or make evasion an decaying percentage base compared to the enemy accuracy instead of the current linear base

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