Ok so explain to me why in an encounter with a griefer that is not clever and informed going red is different than the current system. Why is it that GvGs allow you to "win" when you couldn't of by just going red. 

OK.  SO what's wrong with pvp, and why is it ok to force it on others but not have others force it on you when you try to grind on Arsha?  Besides, I know plenty of people who grind on arsha.  If Arsha wasn't intended for grinding, why the drop rate bonus there?

It's not going through... well idk how to explain then, maybe read some stories about EVE online to get an idea what sandbox can be. I don't fully understand your question but yes PVP without consequences is also fun. Just not exactly the same as the sandbox PVP I'm talking about.

Arsha is a server with mobs so ofc it is intended for grinding. The drop rate buff is there to roughly make up for the loss you would get because of PVP encounters, afaik. Or maybe to attract more people, idk.

I see BDO on a good way to be more open and welcoming to a whole stream of new players. People have different opinions of course but i see a bright future for black desert for many years to come.

What if there were 10 arsha servers?

Just feed to mobs if you are afraid of going red. Maybe then you'll get a mutual war to boot. I fail to see how proposed changes are bad, especially the family wide karma. It's clear that they (PA) want wars to be a fun experience, not something used as a tool for punishment/harrassment/etc.

I've been on official BDO forums since Kakao days.  And not once, not one time, have I seen poster saying to keep systems in place or make changes in order to punish / harrass others.  Zero.  I've seen posts where people actually support Karma Bombing for ReAsOnS, though.  Basically, supporting a hole in the system that can actually be used for "punishment/harassment" (your words).  In fact, there's another thread here where I posted a YouTube video of a player explicitly showing this and someone actually supported the intentional removal of gear to Karma Bomb because "i'Ve OnLy SeEn PlAyErS rEmOvE gEaR aNd GeT pK oN PuRpOsE bEcAuSe ThEy CnAt DeFnEnD tHeMsElVeS" -- ignoring the actual issue althogether.  Kind of like smokers ignoring the brainwashing and health / financial costs of nicotine.

People are not against the KR changes because it makes harassment via PK harder to do.  No rational person in the right mind will believe that.  What people are against is the removal of the one and only way to defend one's self from a form of griefing (there's many ways to grief in BDO) that can be described as "rotation griefing".

You say "just feed them to mobs".  That is suggesting to literally "fight griefing with griefing", unless you're denying that mob-feeding isn't griefing.  Oh, mob-feeding isn't griefing only when it comes to defending yourself, you say?  If so, you're like that other person who supports removing gear to get PK'd on purpose because it's for "self-defense" -- also completely ignoring the side of the spectrum where it can be used in an actual toxic way?  Makes complete sense.

Why not just tackle the issue of weaker guilds/players from being harassed instead of blanketing the issue with a band-aid?  If the issue is "weak players get bullied by stronger ones via one sided dec", then why not assess THAT issue, and THAT issue alone?  Make one-sided decs automatically or optionally drop off after a relatively short amount of time.  Problem solved.  The NON-TOXIC way of defending one's self / one's claimed rotation is kept in tact, the open world sandbox PvX experience is kept in tact, and guilds that do not want to partake in war have an out.

"But if they do that, then stronger players have that amount of time to kick a player out / harass them"

- Use Marni's Realm.  Or try grinding a less contested rotation.  The best rotations = the most contested, it's not rocket science.  BDO isn't a single player PvE game -- it's an open world sandbox MMO.  At least for now.  This means playing alongside other people (MMORPG).

"Then why don't you use Marni's Realm if someone griefs you while grinding?"

- I would.  But not at the expense of an open world PvX sandbox MMO experience -- an experience that BDO designed years ago.  The game is inching closer to a single player instanced PvE grind in cricles game where everyone avoids each other every year.  Further and further from an open world PvX sandbox, an experience unlike any other relevant MMO in the market today.  PA will do what they will with their game, I really don't care...it's just a game.  Although, the BDO I fell in love with isn't a single player instanced PvE grind in cricle game where everyone avoids each other.  A game that PA is inching closer and closer to making BDO become.  KR changes in NA/EU, left untouched, unrefined, and without due diligence would be the nail in the coffin to this very unique MMORPG experience - objectively speaking.

TLDR.

I'm interested to know where people are even grinding that they get karma bombed? I rarely ever see people grinding unless its on Arsha.

Im also not sure. Mostly I think its people arguing hypotheticals about bad things that *could* happen or might become impossible if we do or dont get KR policy changes here.

Also arguing on this topic is getting very hard, My posts are getting mass flagged constantly and removed.

any time someone cant think of a rebuttal to my view the post is just mysteriously mass disliked and removed by the mods.