Bro this is litterally killing me i feel like i am losing IQ talking to some of these people here they are so salty and upset like Columba that is a self proclaimed Karma Bomber (They Litterally are trying any way they can to change the discussion so they are not being called a Karma Bomber) My guess is they are constantly getting killed constantly having problems every were they go.

We have very little options once a player starts to Karma Bomb and there is ZERO player that is worth me lossing 2 billion in Gems and risk my armor deleveling for some retard that thinks like Columba and is most likely guildless i will just move on and go someplace else.

Long, but hopefully ReconKangas and Columba reads this.

Ok before this gets too heated, I was thinking about this last night.  Hear me out.  I don't think you, Recon or Columba, are necessarily "wrong", given the context of the game itself.  Let me explain my thought process, please feel free to correct anything, and if any of the more "hostile" forum memebers are this - don't be an ass-clown to me because I'm just trying to discuss.

BDO is a sandbox-MMORPG, right?  Or at least pretty close to one.  With that, comes the implication that the "players make the game", or at least something to that effect.  Now, look at how grind zones are laid out and look at how the game's confines allows us to literally toggle between attacking or not attacking another player, in real-time.  There's a Karma system in place that's meant to deter against reckless PK and grind zones are designed in such a way that it seems like a free-for-all, mobs aren't designated, players stake a claim over a rotation and the game allows us the choice of either defending it, running away, or crying on the forum (/s).  Whether players decide to kill others to take a spot by force, or whether players talk it out, or whether players just ignore others and only concern themselves, is all up to us -- the game doesn't prevent us from making these choices, and more, in how to work-out conflicts or interact with others.  All within the confines of the game.

When it comes to "grind-spot ettiquette", however, this is something the game doesn't design.  This aspect of the game (grind-spot ettiquette) is ALL US, the players, to decide! (often on a case-by-case basis because we have no appointed Presidents to make laws, or whatever)

How we deal with conflicts happens on a case-by-case basis, often involving individuals who may have opposing values.  Does a player value sportsmanship or over self-interest?  Does a player not bow down to anyone, no matter what, even when the old-time general consenseous of others say it's pretty toxic?  All this, the clashing of personal values, I think, is why so much back-and-forth happens on this topic.  The game doesn't hold our hands in this department!  This department, is all on us, the players to decide, often on a case-by-case basis.

By this context, which I think is the "bare-bones" truth, the confines of the game tells us that neither Recon or Columba is really "wrong" here...maybe Columba may be wrong in the sense of his Karma Bombing isn't an accepted behaviour from other vets, but are they 'really' wrong?  It's well within the confines of the game to do what they're doing.  It's pretty distasteful IMO, to me, I am in the same camp as Recon here -- I wouldn't waste my time if a geared rat was PK-ing me in a grind zone...if the gear-gap is that huge where I can't do anything, I'll say some snarky remark and leave (gotta stroke the ego a little, getting spot taken feelsbadman lol).  That and I value sportsmanship, and I can take a hit to the face and not blink, in a sense. Wipe the blood off your chin, dry those eyes, calm the twisting feeling in your gut - get over it - do something tangibly beneficail and come back stronger to fight another day.

Others, though, feel a certain inclination to what they perceive as justice.  I am putting myself in Columba's shoes, and I can understand...you're in a grind spot and some geared / skilled rat PK's you and you can't fight them.  For whatever reason.  Well, there's the Karma System in all it's glory -- this can be used as a tool for those who are bad at PVP or those who just aren't into it.  Is this a good thing?  Of course it isn't, to me.  But for others, like Columba and those who are just bad at PVP (gear, skill or both), maybe it's good.

I admit, I find abusing the System in this way is distasteful, but I don't think Columba seeks to mess with people.  I tihnk they get messed with and mess with them back, in the only way they can.  I know how it feels to be slighted, exacting some sort of justice can "just feel right", 'ya know?  They can't fight properly to defend their own spot, but there's the Karma System.  Using it to their advantage allows the spot to be defended.  Is this intended?  IDK.  Is this an exploit of a System?  Seems like it, or doesn't, depending how you look at it.  I tihnk it is, but it's just me.  The game doesn't tell us.

What I find funny = The vets who are geared and have grown with the game in experience and gear usually find Columba's actions "distasteful" (to say the least), whereas, I can see many non-PVP players or newbies supporting it.  Makes sense.  You guys don't have the gear / skill, but you have this Karma System, so of course you'll like it because it benefits you.  I don't think either of you are actually "wrong", Recon and Columba.  Of course, this isn't knowing the full details of each interaction, because interactions/conflicts happen on a case-by-case basis, involving different people and different contexts, so I can only speak genrally on this.

So genrally, taking into account the confines of the game, I don't think either of you are really wrong.  But I'd personally choose Recon's choice of action -- to me, it's more honorable to ACTUALLY try defending your spot (AKA fighting back) and if you can't win, well, I find it also more honorable to gain inspiration to get stronger due to losses instead gain inspiration to make QQ posts on the forum.  The time spent Karma Bombing or maing QQ posts can be spent doing something tangibly productive.  But I don't see it how Columba, or QQ-ers sees it, so it's just all our opinions on it at the end of the day, IMO.

This is all semantics.  Get real.  Here's the definition of "Griefer", according to Google.  It's even at the top of the search in big letters.

You didn't see the big loop hole did you?  Of course you didn't.

Broken from the very start: Speculation : Lack of evidence : Impossible to verify : Error Prone

The problem starts from "spoil their enjoyment".  It can't really be defined.  It's all subjective.  It can also be covered up like this.

This is NOT griefing by that definition

The area is over crowded.  I move into a rotation near a spawn point so I can Karma Bomb more easily.  My objective is to obtain the area and grind optimally.  I don't care about anyone else.  My goal is effeciency.  So I immediately grind in the persons face.  Making it known I WILL BE competing with them possibly out grinding them.  My GOAL is to make them leave and optimize MY GAME PLAY.  Remember I don't care about them.  So they get upset and end up leaving.  Maybe they flag and die, maybe they go red, maybe they just leave.

I HAVE NOT GRIEFED ANYONE by the definition granted.  I actually did exactly what I should do in a PVP game.  I used my smarts to optimize MY OWN PERSONAL GAINS.

No griefing has occurred.

This is NOT griefing by that definition

The SAME EXACT circumstances only I PK them, mob feed them, or just out grind them.

So get out your tears because NONE Of that is "griefing".

You know what IS griefing?  The person that PK'd me near my farm.  Their ONLY interest was to hinder my game.

Guess what though.......... in the end ......... it doesn't even matter!!! GRIEFING IS NOT AGAINST ANY RULES.  If I reported that player nothing would be done, it (GRIEFING) is just part of the game ;) A built in and INTENDED ACTION BY PEARL ABYSS

Thank you.  I do my best to avoid others' rotations and I fight as best I can when attacked.  I take the opportunity of being pkd to pvp and enjoy that aspect of the game vs run away.  I don't body throw etc, and win ab  out half the fights.  I see no reason to leave because I lost any more than I leave the Battle Arena or RBF after a loss.  It's part of the game.  A happy consequence is that I don't get pushed out of an area where I was bothering no one.  I also use these pk incidents to improve my pvp and get stronger.  I am enjoying these chances to pvp.  

You're entitled to your opinion.

You can also show your class, level and main's name, and have an account that players can verify your lifeskill levels and other things -- you know, evidence that you play the game.  But you don't.  Oh well.  Just glad I'm not the only one that sees right through you.

Well that's to bad if you can't differentiate between FACT & OPINION.  You should brush up on your skills and study the text.

Your inability to decipher and understand basic concepts make me question your ability to adequately respond to people posts or talk about the subject matter.

Unless you just want to admit you have no arguement or response so you tried to escape with "it's your opinion".

Thank you.  I do my best to avoid others' rotations and I fight as best I can when attacked.  I take the opportunity of being pkd to pvp and enjoy that aspect of the game vs run away.  I don't body throw etc, and win ab  out half the fights.  I see no reason to leave because I lost any more than I leave the Battle Arena or RBF after a loss.  It's part of the game.  A happy consequence is that I don't get pushed out of an area where I was bothering no one.  I also use these pk incidents to improve my pvp and get stronger.  I am enjoying these chances to pvp.  

Absolutly 100% agree with you on this we are the unfortunate recipients of these returning or new players with seasonal gear that got bluffed into thinking that PEN tuvala is End Game and dont realize when they graduate they are starting over like brand new starting over building fresh gear to advance.

Though there rewards are good and season was pretty popular it leaves players at a complete Dead end with ZERO way to advance. We had one guildie flip out at us after we told him he had to build new gear to advance he had dropped 1500 US on buying outfits to whale his Tavula to PEN. When these people realize they got duped into blowing cash and literally cant sell any of it including the boss gear they traded 99% traded weapons when the only gear dim tree can be enhanced to PEN c10 and swaped to fallen god then can be sold. everything else is garbage.

We lost several players after reality sets in that season was a complete waste of time.

Just trying to find the middle ground.  The game doesn't tell us what's right and wrong in these situations.  So to say you're wrong for refusing to leave when someone rolls up, I can't really say so objectively.  Lots of things boil down to the individual case at hand, and without knowing full details of said interactions, pretty tough to say who I think is right or wrong in it.

Karma Bombing does exist though...Recon and I have experienced it first hand.

TBH, this topic is exhausting lol, everyone's got their opinion on it.  And it's tough to conclude when nothing is set in stone.  KB does exist, just maybe not in your experience.

KB = Purposefully negatively affecting another's gameplay experience with the intent of casuing enough unrest in them to coerse that player into flagging up and losing Karma due to the unrest caused by the instigation.

Key words: "Purpose", "Intent", "Coerse", "Instigate" and "Unrest".

Example: You're grinding a solo rotation, and someone hits mobs in it and 100% ignores any communication, no matter how considerate or cordial.  This is an action that calls for a fight.  If I'm taking a dump at McDonald's public restroom and a stranger entered while I was using it and ignored me while trying to use the same toilet I'm using, let's just say it won't be sunshine, rainbows and cotton canday gumdrops.

Recon provided a good definiton too.

Karma Bomber: are those individuals after they lost a 1v1 to a flagged player will Re rez,Tear and or remove gear to exploit the karma system to specifically harrass a player they obviously can not fight. This also includes those that remove gear in the desert and let a player PK them just to attmept to send them to jail.

NOW the issue goes from a mechanic that is allowed Flagging and killing another player with the loss of Karma to you now being a Troll and a Karma bomber BY EXPLOITING a Karma based system that will allow you by attrition to keep a spot you obviously can not defend.

Key words: "Harrass", "Spot you cannot defend", "Exploit" (further in another post: "Revenge")

Example:  Players who agree and lose to DFS, but cannot stomach the loss, so they turn toxic and mess with the other person.  Bad, bad sportsmanship.

Hopefully something can be done to prevent the truly toxic abuse of the Karma System.  NOt sure what, though.  I mean, at least it's rare and I know how to deal with it, but for others who may not, I just fear for 'em.