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UTC 5 : 57 May 20, 2024
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#Suggestions
Long Live Tamer 5
Aug 30, 2023, 12:10 (UTC)
457 4
Last Edit : Sep 1, 2023, 15:32 (UTC)
# 1

Hello Dev Team! It's been a while. You guys have been putting in a lot of work and most of it has been for the better! Tamer feels much more fulfilling to play and succeed on compared to a year ago and I'm sure it's feeling better than ever before. (tamer has been my pvp main for about 3 years.)

 

An update on my personal tamer. I'm now 671 gs 281/288/388 kutum. If I go more defensive I'd be 676gs 273/277/401 which is generally a better feel for pvp-ing. I was pushing for 316ap previously but after failing to get my pen neck after 15 attempts I've decided to change my approach and focus on building up my defensive capability due to the current high damage range meta on console at the moment. After changing to a more defensive build i was able to grind comfortably on my awakening tamer and in general pvp i tend to be able to run with the ball and participate so long as my evasion is high enough for the specific people we are fighting, this for me is nice compared to the sideline ganking playstyle. The comparison for me is pretty much down to… 1: I could kill one, maybe two high value targets then potentially get ganked and killed while finishing (usually the second target). 2: I could reduce my finishing capacity to increase survivability and cc more than one high value target in a group fight then escape and return with another gank later or just run interference for my range people. 3: counter assassinate the incoming enemy carries who are targeting my high value teammates.(If I protect a top tier archer for example the dps he could put down is significantly more impactful than me killing 1 random person on the enemy team who was out of position.even if it means I have to sacrifice myself in a lot of cases.) These seem like the only reasonable options in group fighting.

TAMER PVP:

Pvp with the new iframes feels great, with a reasonable amount of dp and eva. I can actively i-frame through ball engagements and away from losing fights so long as I'm not chased by a hash, maewah, musa, nova, ninja, kuno(someone fast with a quick catch ability). I can easily dodge archer and ranger shots to engage them and apply pressure. Woosa and maegu are a difficult matchup because I have short arms and they move too much/ have clones that confuse me at times this really reduces my potential dps. Most other fights have a reasonable chance to win.

IMO: The worst fights are with enemies who are extra elusive and tend to evade my attacks more easily than I can engage them. Long duration cc skills that are area of effects(multiple cc ticks), SA-FG(cant pressure them and kill in same rotation without severely out gearing), eva memes (need to reduce my ap and improve accuracy to the point it's hard to finish them before they get up)

TAMER PVP SUGGESTIONS:

1: The accuracy buff needs to be more accessible. Currently there are 3 ways you can trigger a 15% accuracy buff; 3x basic attacks (10 second duration ), completing full moon animation (10 second duration ) or cloud stomping for (3 second duration) there is also the accuracy passive that's 5%. maybe make the passive 15% and the skill buff 5% 

If not swap 15% for 5% then I think the accuracy buff would be more helpful if it was on echo pierce, LBD:echo or moonlight strike something we are already using to engage or have available to quickly add into combo if needed. The downsmash on a full moon is nice but it takes too long in a combat situation to reliably apply the buff. Outside of a 1v1 situation, a full moon is generally unsafe and is the opening enemy peel needs to finish you off or make you run.

2: Add the ability to full moon after legendary beast dance: echo. This makes for a smoother cc chain and easier pve

To me the best combination for engaging is LBD:up>full moon> soaring strike> LBD:echo up>celestial slam> beast rampage. This is the fastest animation chain, with ccs that make sense in order. I would prefer we had other accuracy buff options because removing full moon from the combination would increase dps and shorten the combo duration. if full moon was accessible from more skills and applied buff faster that might also be good, especially for pve.

Giving a free easy to punish opening from me needing to complete the animation for buff is bad for 1vX.

3: +10-15% damage on beast rampage, soaring strike and celestial slam. If i hit someone with any of these and don't mortally wound them it's an issue(if back or air attack it should kill equal gear in 1.5 skills or less). Maybe add +special atk% or modify how we get our 15% accuracy buff. That way it's not just a straight up damage increase to everyone. This is mostly in regards to tankier classes and dp/eva builds who have SAFG. So maybe even a shield reduction/ shield break mechanic.

4: The all around spinner should be SAFG. If the stick held out in front of you is a block, and all around spinner is a FG skill then a spinning stick also equals a block, therefore if the stick is spinning all around then it should be all around block. This could be a finisher that is best applied at the end of a chain to confirm a kill while being fully protected. This would help with the 1vX problem of getting bullied off your prey. *spicy warning*Could be nice to deal more damage to the sides and behind me. If it was it would be perfect for a fight extender, you could dive a group, dance till everyones cc'ed then dps and spinner if you want to stay and fight, soaring strike flow for kill if not dead, then try to escape.

5: Legendary Beast Dance core should extend to LBD:Echo giving it a frontal guard in all directions, this would double the amount of protected engagements tamer has in large scale making it more manageable. I'm pretty sure this would help with getting peeled off an almost dead target too. Since the skill has her stick sweeping in front of her it seems logical to believe it should block/ parry while attacking

6: Make celestial slam cancelable,the faster i can get out of it the more likely i am to use it.

7: The dog needs to be more threatening in pvp. Howling isn't effective at all and the dog attack/ stay/ help modes are not especially useful(you can do things with them but are they really worth a hotkey or spot on ring menu)..it would be really nice to be able to send the dog for a stun again like old howling. being able to stop someone in their tracks with a dog stun while within pole vault range was and would be amazing.

8: Reduce dog riding tankiness by 60% or more… It needs to be possible to kill a dog with 3-5 people. Dog riding dps needs a 100-200% increase, if i can 2 skill someone on foot I should be able to 2-3 skill them on dog, my AP is literally the same… If I Trample/Up claw> Lightning of earth> Roaring/ Throat burn it should yield a kill… IMO: the dog should be similar to Hystria mobs, where it can't be cc in general but can be stunned. Make it possible to 2-3 skill people from the dogs back while also making it possible to stun the dog and kill the dog while the rider is riding. The only counterplay to the dog should not just be BSR 10%. It's hard enough to drive the dog properly, it should at least be rewarded with relatively easy kill potential. For the enemies it shouldn't be something you just avoid either, They should have at least a little fear of me killing them.

9: It should be possible to pick a Legendary Beast Dance stance and dog mode preference: in RBF, NW and Siege you can die a lot. Every time I die I need to summon a dog> pick a dog mode> pick a LBD direction>get the RBF eva buff> hold block for 2sec buff> 3x basic attack for Accuracy buff>  then I can finally go fight. It would be better if I could select a mode to persist. I should just be able to summon my dog and that it always stays in the mode I select until I change it even through death. As for the LBD stance it can be annoying to not get the outcome I desired because I forgot to load up a dance to echo or ended up double casting the skill forcing a dance change. Rbf just highlights the problem because you want to engage frequently and end up dying often.

10: Improve hp on hit of beast rampage and intimidation and turtle mode spinner. 100-200 hp on hit  to improve our ability to stick to a target and finish them. kunoichi can full hp off of a good spin… maybe let us get a minimum of 25% hp off of each one of those skills. Preferably I would like enough hp returned to justify sticking to a target in hopes of finishing even if peel is approaching. Either FG on LBD:Echo or boost hp on hit of above skills 2-4x 

11: Please make dp buff from blocking trigger immediately, if the evasion 6% was attached to block I wouldn't mind holding it for 1 sec to get buff but 2 sec for buff is a bit dramatic. The only time I ever spam hold a Frontal guard like that is if I'm out of stamina. Which is rare. 

12: Cloud stomping evasion and accuracy buff should be moved. I can't really find a good reason to actively use this skill and it's mostly wasting one of my ring menu slots. Damage is 300%+ lower than my useful skills, super armor in this meta gets you killed, accuracy buff is 3 sec vs 10 sec from full moon and 6% eva is its only redeemable effect and why I have it hot keyed. cc is pve only too.

13: Soaring Strike should be 30-50% faster. It's the best burst damage skill forsure, initially i thought width and range of skill was small but it seems like the load up is just slow and would be much better if significantly faster.

14: It's difficult to tell when the grab will work… maybe it's because I have the shortest height possible. But it seems like my grab misses in situations where I'm facing an opponent and they are relatively close, it's hard to explain but in the heat of the moment I seem to miss my grab an annoying amount. Maybe it's because I'm bad, Idk but I've also grabbed people in situations where it seemed like it shouldn't be possible and they levitate into my foot then fall. It could be clearer. Mostly looking for clarity, I think it's a cone shaped effective area but I can't tell where the edges are or exactly how far my reach is. Im pretty sure i'm not being evaded either because the skill has +50% accuracy rate.

15: *dumb crazy idea warning... what if instead of giving the old howling back directly, the grab got changed to a ranged dog grab. where every 15 - 25 seconds we could send the dog to grab someone with its teeth biting their ankle. With tamer being a flippy melee with the shortest attack range, this would be insanely helpful and would give us a game changer. Old howling was similar to this( You would howling every 40 sec for the easy stun then approach for an easy grab). This made people sooooo mad and I miss that. The grab currently isn't bad but a range grab would be more useful and we could easily hard cc people without it. it could be our counter against SAFG'ers and defensive players.

16 Can you please standardize the AOE size...make them all the size of legendary beast dance vermillion or all around spinner. they're pretty close already, i just want to increase confidence or at least clearly understand where i'm expecting damage to happen. Clarity..

17: All Around Spinner 100% needs to be a sure kill and probably needs hp on hit.

 

TLDR; THOUGHTS:

Tamer needs a general damage increase of 10-15%, a bigger damage increase on the A.A.S. 100%, backwards i-frame in pre awakening, accuracy buff acquisition change.

The dps boost could be achieved through many means. accuracy should be more accessible.  Possibly an extra special attack damage buff on a skill. You could also  just add more hp on hit which would improve survivability and allow for better throughput. SAFG on spinner would help with getting punished while finishing(prob not, but worth a try). s-block or backwards iframe in pre awakening would help not get blown up while evading (especially if you were to trigger the backwards jump chain.)

I feel she needs a slight damage increase because the ranged opponents can peel her faster than she can kill most targets and the % of range players is high right now. Defense has already been improved to a point where i don't feel it needs anything other than a s-block/ back iframe in pre awakening and maybe some significant hp on hit buffs for the few skills that have it

Tamer has a hit and run playstyle( I tend to describe it like robbing a bank,) when you hit an enemy they should die relatively fast (usually do). Because you legit have to run immediately sometimes even before you can finish a target. This is especially the case in the current ranged damage meta. Her defense basically relies on a person's ability to completely evade incoming skills or counter the incoming skill with a well timed i-frame or frontal guard if applicable(multi tick long duration ccs hard counter this). Tamer has short arms and the shortest attack range, for her to cc you she basically has to put herself in a position where she can easily be killed…(all cc except core is unprotected, grabs are unprotected. Tamer will give an opening or many openings forsure.) if you slip up and let her catch up to you it should be mostly sorted if the cc is successful.

Maybe it's all the range damage forcing everyone to build more tanky or the percentage of player base on SAFG/ maegu/ woosa. I don't feel I'm finishing as fast as I should be against shield classes or tankier classes in general.(You shouldnt be able to evade-meme against a tamer.).. 297+ ap feels great offensively but the problem is that I lose so many defensive stats I die to trial characters and random ranged attacks. Below the 297 ap bracket finishing ability starts to feel less than satisfactory. 289 is pretty comfortable in most cases. 277-281 is doable if you are very comfortable with combos. 269 struggles against anything other than squishy targets, imo you are just countering them with other stats like dp eva accuracy hp. Only works in niche cases. Anything below 269 is completely useless. If i go full evasion meme then im hitting people with nerf bats and i-framing through enemy balls like an idiot without a care in the world. 

All in all, GOOD WORK! These are just some areas you should look into to improve the feeling and satisfaction of investing time, effort and money into the tamer character… 

link to doc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1902qG4_lcf2DX3KBYSw_GRbX2sW03iovTqo72VhYDYA/edit?usp=sharing

link to my xbox game dvr for videos.

https://gamerdvr.com/gamer/king-lumi-iii/videos



Last Edit : Aug 30, 2023, 12:45 (UTC)
# 2

Too early to read that much but +1 because tamer is best

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Picklenose
This was deleted by the writer.
Last Edit : Sep 1, 2023, 11:53 (UTC)
# 4

 edited above post for clarity, i hit the character limit for the post so i removed the grinding section and added it here.

GRINDING:

Since beginning to grind on my tamer I've ended up spending most of my time in elvia at orcs and bloody monastery both pretty good for awakening and succession tamer. If I'm 100% honest tamer in elvia feels amazing when you have a weapon. Without a weapon it takes 2-3 skills extra to finish a pack if they are grouped properly before dps rotation. Tamer PVE seems to always come back to the fact that it's not particularly satisfying to strike several times and it does not feel effective(i'm an assassin my enemy should die quick). If I wanted the most effective strikes my grouping is likely poor due to excessive repositioning. If I want the best grouping for dps rotation I end up wasting time waiting for walking mobs to get in range. If I attack the biggest groups I tend to need to dps down 3-5 groups of running mobs that arrive at different intervals. This applies mostly to awakening as prime roaring is a 7 sec cd so each arriving group can get roared and this takes care of most of the stragglers because the skill is very powerful and 360 a.o.e. 

sidenote: i barely grind. ever. maybe 5-10 hrs per month most months... If I ever do a lot of grinding it's mostly due to pushing a level or grind event where it's extra worth it and in those instances i might grind 60-100 hrs a week, i can play bdo while im at work... I have a decent life skilling setup where i can make a bill a day relatively easy while only lifeskilling for a couple hours every few days. also the occasional enhance for profit.

I know it's mostly a petty complaint and I will acknowledge that you guys have made many changes that have improved tamers silver per hour. We got valencia changes to make that reasonably valuable, many rounds of skill changes to make many of them worth using again, iframe update and shortcut input. Now all that's left is to make tamer PVE truly satisfying so i can stop tagging flavor of the month meta pve’ers to make grinding more enjoyable. I really would prefer to just use my tamer awakening. Without being forced to roll another class like maegu, woosa, drakania, guardian or use succession tamer  which i don't really like much.

In my opinion… ex: if 3-5/7 non elite mobs run up to me and I get back attacks they should die in 1 strong hit (beast rampage/ soaring strike/ celestial slam) or 2 medium strong hits (anything else) without an elvia weapon. With an elvia weapon my medium hits should be life threatening to most mobs and any strong skill should eliminate anything(non elite in most zones) in front of me. The easiest way for me to explain this in simple terms is that I would be overly satisfied if my non elvia weapon pve felt 50% worse than my elvia weapon pve. I would prefer a elvia weapon NOT feel 2-3x better for 10 mins then back to average/ below average feeling pve.

 

Awakening vs Succession:

Awakening: high apm and many single target-ish, small to medium a.o.e. Skills. great movement and protection compared to succession

Succession: slightly lower but still high apm, simplified combat rotation and medium to large a.o.e. Skills. less skills overall though so greatly reduced complexity. No S-block.

It's a bit selfish but I feel like the awakening pve damage% should be increased 20-50% so I can grind super effectively, tamer has basically been hamstrung since launch and there's no way to make up for the loss of pve silver maining tamer would have caused compared to maining meta pve chars . So for the next 6mo just let us feel amazing and top the pve loot charts lol…. What would actually happen is I could grind reasonably hard and make avg numbers without sweating. Maybe this is just a me thing but recently i've been tamer/maegu and maegu feels super good to run around in circles. Maybe it's just because she's new to me but I've got witch, lahn , shai, guardian tagged for pve’ing and swap off when I get bored with them. All strictly because i like the feel of them better than tamer in pve. Combat on tamer is leagues ahead for me though.

Tamer pre awakening just needs a s-block and/or backwards iframe jump. With all the ranged damage in the game it's unfortunate for her to be unable to defend herself in that specific situation(FG skills are hard to time, especially the short ones and ones you want to cancel after). Tamer can't turn invisible and does not have SAFG, she can run but not very far or spectacularly fast. The bruisers can out defend us, the speedsters can out speed or distance us, and geared people straight up kill us through super armor. Give us the block to improve survivability 

I feel like awakened tamer pve would be best at big ass monsters, high sustained dps, lots of movement and defensive options. Succession is definitely better at field clearing. 

Last Edit : Sep 1, 2023, 11:56 (UTC)
# 5

i was in a rbf today and with an entire enemy team hitting me (5-8 people attacking most of the time) and they only got my dog to half health... (if i wasnt mounted and did similar things, i would have died 10-20 times in that timespan.) it took the enemy team mabout 8 mins to dismount me. i think i managed to kill 1 person while mounted and it was mostly luck on the last hit.

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