There are currently 26 classes in the game, 17 of which have grabs in either awak/succ/both. Of the remaining 9: 1 is support (shai), 3 play at range (maegu,archer,witch) leaving 5 close range (sorc,musa,maehwa,dk,woosa). [correct me if im wrong]

Grabs in this game have a high reward for very little skill and for most classes, very little risk as they are protected or the few frames that they are not are lost because 0 latency is a myth. The high reward being that you can use a grab to start a combo which in most cases will guarantee a kill.

Now naturally there are some classes that can turtle, sit in 360 Q block and are very tanky. Warrior / Valk etc. So you have to sustain high damage to get through that FG. Oh, you've been grabbed, and you've been 1 shot.

But thats ok.

Some classes are permanently protected in Super Armor and trade really well, zerk, stroker, mystic. So to fight them you trade your FGs and SAs and slowly but surely you chip away at their health. Oh, you've been grabbed, and you've been combo'd.

But thats ok.

Some classes are less tanky, more iframe focussed, a little more skillfull if you will, ninja, kuno, tamer. A game of movement rotating your trades and your iframes managing your stamina. Oh, you've been grabbed, and you've been sliced up.

But thats ok.

Now I don't think I even need to talk about how fighting Ranger or Drakania goes. I'll be rerolling to the latter one myself soonTM.

Ok sarcasm aside. Lets talk about the solution to this.

The not so clean option is to give all classes grabs. Just like most fighter games, all characters have a grab/grapple/guardbreak whatever you want to call it. The idea being you can actually prevent turtling. How balanced those grabs are going to be on the 9 classes that don't currently have them shouldn't even be an argument because they are literally broken on every class that already has them.
"But wait Musa/Maehwa will just run in and grab you..." I hear you say. Yes like ranger, warrior, zerk and literally every other class already does.
"But oh sorc and dk will be broken they can just iframe until they're ready to grab you..." I hear you say. Yes like ninja, kuno and tamer already does.

"But oh witch and archer are ranged, they can just grab you after you close the gap..." I hear you say. Yes like wizard, corsair and anyone who is low hp, already does.

The other option is to change the CC count on grabs from 1 to 2. And this is possibly the better option.

For those who need reminding. Once you have a 2cc count, additional ccs are not applied and a 5 second reset is started.

There are 2 scenarios that concern grab. 1 - Engaging with grab to start the combo, and 2 - Using a grab to extend a combo. We only want to nerf the first scenario as that is the one that requires room temperature IQ.

A zerk can engage with a grab applying 1 cc, do a bit of damage, apply a knockdown for 2cc total, and then kill its target.

Now he can pull off this sequence even if the target if protected because grab doesn't care about your SA.

Once you are cc'd in any dimension, you are almost guaranteed to die in 1v1 and you are 100% dead in any group fight. All because someone clicked 1 button on you and there was next to nothing you could do about it in the first place.

If however, the grab applied a 2cc count, this unskillful engage is no longer a guaranteed kill. The grab goes off, you do a bit of damage and the target gets out in a 1v1. In a group fight, you're still most likely going to die anyway and that's good. The goal is not to fundamentally change group pvp. We just don't want to be forced into playing grab classes.

Non-grab classes have always been justified because of their high damage output. And yet it doesn't feel like that anymore against classes that are tanky on a same gear same skill basis. You cannot compare a 330 ap dk's damage to a 401dp archer and call it OP when there are 7 turtle classes in the game that do the same damage.

Final remark

I remember back when Pearl Abyss said they wouldn't make WoW style PvE dungeons/raids that required Tank Support Dps because they don't want people to feel like they are forced to play certain classes or roles. And yet, they never extended this philosophy to pvp - you must play Valk/Drak.

Me posting this fully aware that

- The 17 grab classes will be against this.

- I'm going to get slaughtered for it being a dark knight POV.

- Nothing has been done about this before and nothing will be done in the future.

Yea grabs in this game are one of the main reasons pvp is simply garbage to say the least.

I play Lahn and as a grab only class I hate what you just said about grabs. Why? Because Lahn can't kill a squishy class with full rotation unless she grabs. Ofc the tankier classes will be more hard but if you apply the 2cc to lahn grab which has a long damn cd that class will be unplayable...unless ofc lahn doesn't get this 2cc and only zerk,mystic,valk and striker.

Also, warrior awa, valk awa, Kuno, ninja are high apm classes and more ppl play the 2-3 grab class zerker and all the other classes that you mentioned dk, witch, "infinite I.frame" sorceress are good in large scale. 

And the thing you said with 330ap dk vs 401dp archer....is a melee class vs ranged(true range class).

Tank classes are zerk with a lot of hp which has like 2 grabs and extensions, warrior,valk, and striker and mystic the op broken evasion classes, the rest are not tanks....and I think that FG block grab??idk but giving a grab to woosa the FG class is very bad idea.

I'm sorry but you've identified that you're part of the problem. You're saying that you as an awakening lahn are incapable of getting the engaging CC without grab? And that you rely on the no-skill grab engage to fight. Lahn has other cc skills that you can open with you know. The length of time your damage window is open is unchanged between opening with a grab or a float. Sounds like you only know the one easy combo which every lahn learns and then closed the youtube video dispite there being far more advanced stuff. (respectfully)

These other classes may be high apm, but sorc is higher apm and has no grab. Make it make sense.

And no they really are not good in large scale anyway. Why do you think siege guilds have a priority list and dk isn't on it. Its about perspective. Is the class good compared to other classes on equal terms.

You've missed the point again here too. Not Having a Grab was okay before because you dealt more damage than other classes. Now - classes that Do Have Grabs, are doing the same and more damage.

Dk - No grab, Squishy, High Trade Dmg

Ninja - Yes grab, Squishy, Higher Execute Dmg

Drak - Yes grab, No Squishy, Higher Trade Dmg

Naturally I'm not saying that classes are balanced anyway, yes some classes i.e awak lahn may need buffing as a result of this. Thats fine too, make the grab change and rebalance whats weak. But relying solely on a grab is disgustingly boring.

I feel your concerns about Grab.

I'm a grab class and every single time I see non-grab class fighting classes like Valk or so, I just feel bad for them.

Even though the Grab is a strong thing, I cannot fully agree grabs do not require skill to land, generally speaking. Some of them are difficult to land some others simpler (the ranged ones are so simple to land).

Also, updating the CC count from 1 to 2 wouldn't solve the situation ultimately. As you mentioned, some classes are very tanky and well-protected, thus almost impossible to counter without a Grab (assuming the player knows how to play the class). Not talking about the fact, that these kinds of classes usually can tank enormous amounts of damage while still having abilities to heal themselves back up fast.

More than an issue is the fact that the same classes have practically infinite protected movement without punishment points (weak points) - no risk going for CCs with no protection, etc. This is a much greater issue than Grab mechanic itself, IMO.

In earlier years of this game, it wasn't a thing and PvP was much more fun and more about skill.

First, fix class modifiers (some classes are more than 2 times tankier by design than others - gearing unfairness), full protected movements, and OP mechanics (360 blocks, Zerker no stamina movement, etc.), after these we can talk about Grabs. IMO

So that first bit is totally fine with me. If someone is playing perfectly then they should be hard to counter. 2 people playing perfectly regardless of class should be a longer fight until either someone makes a mistake in their protection rotation or someone dies to damage trade. A 2cc grab should speed up the damage trade without allowing a full 100->0 execution combo. The grab is no longer a win condition itself, it just speeds up another win condition.

If I fight a ninja, and he grabs me on a 2cc count, its likely I'm coming out of that fight very low and SA trading will finish me off. Fights will be longer and actually enjoyable rather than that grab being a 1cc count and my death being guaranteed.

Thats how fighter games should be, skill ceiling high enough to be fully protected and trading damage. You die when you make a mistake or if your opponent is trading FGs to your SAs better.

Regarding tankier classes, it already requires full committment for non-grab classes to kill them yes. We're ok with that. We just ask that they not be allowed to grab us once and that be the end of it.

In most fighting games I've played, they had CCs similar to grabs to punish turtling (aka. sitting in SA) and not as a catch!

Dash grabs dorminate already weak classes in pvp and the desync is terrible....

Exactly right. Grabs should punish turtles not be used as a primary catch.

they should add grab teching. people would become less reliant on them as a result