I feel each class should have the same amount of grabs and the ability to use all forms of protection in their kit, one shouldn't have more protection or more grabs than the other. Each class should play different to suit different playstyles but have all the same tools available to them. I think striker is fun but the main reason it's my main is because not having a grab is a handicap, so give us all a grab or take them away, it would be a good start to many needed changes.

Aaaah, there is the main difference between our opinions, I think we can't give the same amount of hands and defences to each class without hurting their identities. 

Their thought on giving more FG than SA would be a better starting point to my opinion : we witnessed that Devs can't properly create time-based gaps between defences. But if they can manage to ensure the existence of location-based gaps (the back of your opponents), I'm all for it. 

If classes can be rewarded for reaching the back of an opponent, this would make more sense and preserve the identities of classes. 

From there, devs would probably have to tweak FG area of effect, to forbid some mouse movements, and maybe to create and grant some guard breaking skills. 

There you have 3 ways to go around your opponent's defences, and each classes could go for the best way for their class identity. 

This. Sorc would be so very strong if fg replaced a lot of sa. I'm a Sorc main and I, honestly, exploiting fg is so easy. It's sa that's can be an issue, primarily, shield classes with 360° sa/fg block.

Changing class' kits so heavily as to make sa's into fg's, I feel, is too drastic a change. It will change how a class feels, and I do think shield classes should maintain their strong q blocks. That's part of their identity, as is iframes a part of Sorcs.

What I feel isn't mentioned enough is "WHY" grab is so powerful. It's not the cc. Every class has cc's. Every class has knockdowns. Grabs are powerful because they break the rules of the game and bypass protection. That's why they're powerful. I don't think every class should get a grab. But I find it peculiar why some classes get to bypass protection and others do not.

"Sorc has so many iframes". So do awakening rangers, tamer, and short swords. Maybe the issue is sorc's iframes making her invisible for a millisecond?

"Musa/Mae" are too fast. But there's Zerker and awakening nova who are faster, and Zerker even uses less stamina than bladder/plum and has multiple grabs and better engage/disengage.

Idk, it's almost as if the devs picked which classes get to bypass protection randomly at this point.

I think the best solution is finding a middle ground. All classes should get at least one ability that bypasses protection. It can be unprotected and/or on a long cool down and/or a softer, shorter cc like stiffen -- but it makes zero sense why some classes can break the rules of bypassing protection and others do not. Especially if the classes that cannot bypass protection are classes that fight in melee range -- in range of getting their protection bypassed by grab. The only classic don't think should get one is Succ Ranger. Her damage can already break most players block with 2-3 abilities. And she has the longest consistent range in the game, able to perch on a roof and stay there for 10 mins while getting multikills, unable to be touched.

But honestly, whatever happens happens. I think changing many sa to fg in PVP is not a good idea. I also think giving every class grab is also a bad idea. My suggestion would be give every class who fights in grab range to have at least one protection bypassing ability -- even if the ability is long cooldown, unprotected, and the cc is a softer, shorter cc like stiffen. If not, then that's fine by me, I'm not trying to complain here, just spitballing ideas. My concern is that quality of PvP gets worsened, more than it is now. Trying to remain objective.

Concealment aka invisbility is unprotected also slows your character by a massive margin any aoe or any damage kicks you out of it. Cant say the same for your iframes

Awaken kuno is not equal to succ kuno. Go play the class instead of assuming. I told you what the actual problem is , kutum + passive  ignore resist instantly 40%

Then you add in crystals ... Other class have to litterally drop something to ignore resists an when a grab fails you get kick back of not able use skills. Where as some classes can instantly go into their other grab kuno cant just go grab instant win. 8/10 times it fails , alot more than kds . I have more success with stuns than i do my grab , sure when it works cool great... But it aint like the other classes as we have to remove damage for grab to be better(awakening weapon crystals an other crystals)... Which is fair but having 30% ignore resist on any cc no that has to go. Shouldve been removed at zerk an never added ever again.

Because of these the rest of us get a bad name an everyone without a grab or if they have ignore resist do  including devs (lmao ceo is a zerk) say its op people over estimate grabs by a long shot , same with iframes. Yes iframes are good but as soon as desync is a factor boom you have the same problem with grabs that arent busted. An  desync grabbing should be fixed to. Which also is a massive issue. Yes i played sorc an yah shes in the same boat as awaken kuno in some ways but in alot of ways awaken sorcs better. Succ kuno i wont comment on as i refute playing her because of how mind numbing she is an lack of control compared to awakening

Beautifully put! I 10000000000% agree with this, and should be the main philosophy used by PA for them to start to understand how to effectively and properly balance their game's PVP.

Oh yes, grab is indeed a win button and I can prove it (see my two posts I've started)! Absolutely ridiculous to claim there is nothing to fix about grabs. The only "addition of strenght" that you suggest would match a grab, as I already covered in my essay post on the topic, would be a skill that does one quintillion damage in pvp, that is how stupid and idiotic grab is; to match it, you need a skill that renders your Super Armor irrelevant (a quintillion damage does that), renders your Forward Guard irrelevant (a quintillion damage does that), has to be perfectly timed to the frame buffer to avoid it with an iframe or else it lands and results in your death (u guessed it, a quintillion damage does that), I think u get the idea by now... probably not.

What is funnier is you omiting the part where I say the grab breaker needs to come with increasing the grab casting time to 1.5 seconds or otherwise grabs will remain humanly unreactable to. Even funnier when the next part of my post that you quote mentions exactly this! lol

But I am glad you are starting to realize that having 5 frames to react to a grab (a 12th of a second at 60fps) can't possibly be conceived as human reactable to, you need to assume the grab is coming at any time and just skillesly spam evasive maneuvers while the other side can just rotate SA/FG because they know they aren't under the same pressure unless the enemy also has a grab!

Yes, to perfectly illustrate the fallacies people like you bring up that most grabs are counterable/punishable. Striker's grab is a perfect example of how overpowered some grabs can be, grabs, is in SA and casts a ticking CC around him, even behind his back, that will CC any enemy within his radius, all while still holding his grab. How do you counter/punish something like this? indeed the only option is retreat lol, retreat is not a counter, it is not a punishment, and therefore iframe isn't a counter to grab, since there is no punishment to the grabber, as I have already demonstrated before.

Ok to invalidate your analisis, let's use more concrete terms, neutralization and punishment.

When you compare a grab to iframe or indeed to any other skill in BDO, you find that the grab is unique in that it neutralizes everything and cannot be neutralized by anything, not even iframe since for that you have to time it and that will only happen by spamming or luck. We can take this a step further, grabs have no means of being punished, and punish everything, again with the * mark for iframes depending on spam/luck, since you can't humanly react to a grab by other means.

Thus it becomes evident that iframe is by no means identical to grab. They are in entirely different leagues, or are you telling me you would give up all your grabs for iframes? I would gladly give up all iframes for a grab! It is not by accident that all people that convert from non-grab to grab class immediately notice how much easier grab makes thing; compare that to converting from grab to a heavy iframe class like sorceress, no one in their right mind would do this when there are classes like sorc but with a grab like ninja/kuno. Thus, iframe is by no means as useful in pvp as grab, and you yourself are living proof of this due to the class you play. Let's be honest here. Because unlike iframe, grab is indeed a win button.

Except of course that I also see "warrior" being mentioned there, so unless it is a mistranslation, we can expect not only current non-grab classes to get realignet with their spiritual roles but so too grab classes like wariors. In my opinion this is a great win for pvp! So no, nothing like what you have been saying :)

Option 2 would indeed be a great solution if all we wanted was limit ourselves to solving the new changes and not the general imbalance that presently exists in pvp in part from 1/3 of all classes not having a grab. When the broader scope is inspected, option 3 does more to bring balance for the entirety of pvp than the other 2 options combined.

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