#Suggestions
Add a grab to every class or PvP balance is impossible
Dec 22, 2023, 20:37 (UTC)
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Dec 29, 2023, 22:32 (UTC)
# 111
On: Dec 29, 2023, 21:48 (UTC), Written by Ascenn
Its a thread about grabs, no one is saying this alone will fix the game.
There are a million things to complain about: grabs, iframe, overprotection, underprotection, damage, lag, content, lack of content, lack of damage, too much damage, too much tankiness, evasion, ranged ccs, engage from out of render.
Its like world peace, there's no single solution.
If you want to complain about those things go make another thread.
More exactly, it's a thread saying that balance is impossible if not all classes have a grab. Literally, title.
The simple idea of blaming grab to such an extent is ridiculous. And making a thread about every problem is also ridiculous : you can't formulate a real solution by looking at things seperately.
On: Dec 29, 2023, 21:55 (UTC), Written by A72391
This aged like milk :)
Waiting for your apologies, now that Devs stated that giving grab to every class would mean nerfing the other strengths of grabless classes. As we said from the start. Ooooh what a surprise.
In fact, waiting for the incoming bad faith. XD
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Dec 29, 2023, 22:32 (UTC)
# 112
On: Dec 29, 2023, 17:29 (UTC), Written by Garuwashi
If losing sa on block on warrior is properly compensated with sa movement and/or iframes then I am all for it. I would just like to point out that in order to get grabbed from q block you have to walk in front of the warrior who at the moment of blocking remains stationary at which point it is a skill issue just saying.
yes, u mean like melee classes without a grab? Not an issue if both sides have a grab, then the warrior can't just sit calmly in SA+FG.
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Dec 29, 2023, 22:35 (UTC)
# 113
On: Dec 29, 2023, 22:32 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud
More exactly, it's a thread saying that balance is impossible if not all classes have a grab. Literally, title.
The simple idea of blaming grab to such an extent is ridiculous. And making a thread about every problem is also ridiculous : you can't formulate a real solution by looking at things seperately.
Waiting for your apologies, now that Devs stated that giving grab to every class would mean nerfing the other strengths of grabless classes. As we said from the start. Ooooh what a surprise.
In fact, waiting for the incoming bad faith. XD
So easy for you this is from the perspective of a class with more iframes than dk and a grab.
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Dec 29, 2023, 22:36 (UTC)
# 114
On: Dec 29, 2023, 18:22 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud
Strange, you read the same words than us but see something else.
Pearl Abyss simply confirmed it's powerful. They also confirmed that giving it to grabless classes would mean reducing their other strengths.
You read, you cherrypick, you interpret. Proven.
As we said. You want a grab, you'll lose something else. Because classes are not supposed to keep piling up strengths, and that's the real problem.
So, is the Zerk problem coming from the grab, or from all of its added strengths?
I think that, between all the proposed solutions, giving other ways to break guards, along with giving more FG than SA, would be more efficient and allow to keep the initial concept of the classes.
Giving grabs to every class and reduce strengths would probably kill the concept of the class and create an absurd simplification of classes.
You once again suggest nothing to fix the "I win" button aka grab. How about we add an actual grab-break to the game, where if the grab gets reacted to then the graber gets cc'd by the grabee, to counter your favorite toy aka grab?
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Dec 29, 2023, 23:15 (UTC)
# 115
On: Dec 29, 2023, 19:45 (UTC), Written by Ascenn
I agree to some extent yes. But dk at least and im sure sorc struggles the same fate, need to be attacking a warr/valk q-block for so long (and often with no success anyway) that its only a matter of time, it only takes 1 mistake and we're grabbed.
And I don't necessarily mean qblock into grab as literal, its more a gameplay loop. Qblock until we've exhausted all of our attacks and then charge grab is also a viable play for you. Don't pretend you don't know it.
You gotta remember, there is a clear discrepency in "effort" here. We have to launch an endless assault on your 360FG to break your protection, all the while anticipating a grab micropositioning.
You just have to grab.
All of dk's damage is stationary SA or FG, failing to grab is a skill issue on your part, just saying.
We do no damage during iframe, and to iframe we have to cancel damage skills. How do you break a brick wall without a bulldozer.
Exactly. And it's even worse when your class is melee like sorc/musa/mae where u dont have a grab but need to get into grab-range to play this unfair game. Enough is enough.
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Dec 29, 2023, 22:42 (UTC)
# 116
On: Dec 29, 2023, 20:04 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud
Because you said "It is not about the class it is about the mechanic". If you want to make an example with a class, what else could you do?
But go on, I'm curious.
Don't pretend like I didn't already give you an example regarding striker's grabs and how insanely strong they are, several times over. What developer in their right mind would give this to any class?:
Grabs in BDO simply counter everything and have no counter. How about the grabs like that of striker's, which can even AOE CC from SA its enemies while the striker is still holding the grab? What are these ridiculous counters to grabs you speak of? How does an iframe counter a grab any more than jumping out of a charging bull's path counters the bull? Your concept of a counter is contrary to the proper definition, which is retaliation, a response, a punishment; something like grab having a full 1.5 second casting time and if the grabee reacts within that timeframe then the grabber gets knocked down and punished for having had their grab countered, contrary to what you suggest, where if the grab misses it's just oops wait for grab cooldown and try again. The latter is exactly how it is presently and why grab is the lowest risk and highest reward skill, and why it needs to be abolished from the game or in the least given to every class to make the unfairness evenly distributed.
But do let me know when an iframe will CC you through your SA and FG like grab does, then we can talk about iframe being a win button like grab no doubt is.
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Dec 29, 2023, 22:44 (UTC)
# 117
On: Dec 29, 2023, 20:07 (UTC), Written by Ascenn
Yes the absurd simplification of classes. How about the absurd simplification of pvp that already exists. If you're not playing a meta class that is either overtuned or has utility then your class is dead. If you're going to kill classes so everyone is forced to play a select set of classes, then you've already achieved a pseudo simplification of classes.
Very well said. It is pointless that bdo has so many classes when only a handfull are really viable.
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Dec 29, 2023, 23:33 (UTC)
# 118
On: Dec 29, 2023, 22:32 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud
Waiting for your apologies, now that Devs stated that giving grab to every class would mean nerfing the other strengths of grabless classes. As we said from the start. Ooooh what a surprise.
In fact, waiting for the incoming bad faith. XD
I mean you are the one who wants to keep grabs as unreasonably powerful and imbalanced as they currently are so it's your position that's being changed; I, on the other hand, am getting the changes I want around grabs, so.... thanks for your effort in helping bring this topic to #1, by giving it visibility with ur needless repetitiveness of already-debunked arguments, and providing such easy-to-debunk arguments and flawed rethoric to begin with! We literally couldn't have done it without you. :)
But tbh I think their options are likely due to a mistranslation in what they are receiving; if I write my words more carefully I think I can make it clear enough where they will see that there are no extra adjustments needed after balancing on grabs alone. I'll start that right now!
TITLE: The Reason Why All Classes Do/Don't Deserve a Grab With No Extra Adjustments.
Some have made the argument to me that it would be unreasonable to give a highly slippery class like mine (sorceress) a grab. To those people I always point them to ninja, kunoichi, and lahn. I basically refer to these classes as "sorceresses with a grab skill(s)." While it is true that the sorceress differs in capabilities from ninjas and kunoichis, it's not by that much, and the fight is usually quite even between sorceress, kunoichi, and ninja if we ignore the grab skill; and I'd also argue that Lahn's can even outperform sorceresses at sorceressing! and they get a grab skill too! In fact, I would go as far as to argue that the developer arbitrarily decides who gets a grab skill(s) and which classes don't for no reason at all other than whim. The aforementioned classes along with the sorceress are all very fast-paced classes, I'd argue they have better mobility at traveling long distances than sorceress, they are all heavy-iframe user classes, lahn probably outperforms all of them at the latter. But for some reason sorceress is the only one among these that wasn't granted a grab and try as I may I can't see why that would be the case, it seems entirely arbitrary and at the expense of sorceress players. I have thought many times that, had sorc been released today instead of back in 2013 (was it?), then the sorceress would have been released with a grab skill too for no other reason than the developer seemingly being more charitable in giving out grabs to all new classes since the release of shai/archer I forgot which came out last but thats quite a few years ago. The number of classes with a grab skills outnumber the few that don't have a grab skill. And there doesn't seem to be any reason at all as to why the few that don't have it don't.
A similar argument can be constructed for musa/maehwa: Why dont these two have a grab skill? Some would say it's because they are very fast classes (analogous to saying that sorceress is iframe-heavy so shouldn't have a grab skill) and thus they would argue that musa/maehwa too shouldn't be granted grab skills due to these reasons... But then we can point out that there are classes as fast or far faster than musa/maehwa that do have grab skills: Berserkers, Warriors, etc... The only reasonable conclusion we can draw here is that there is no valid reason why any class should not have a grab skill, especially when it is so decisive in battle. If anything, the question should be raised as to why the current classes with grabs were not restricted/nerfed on their high mobility to compensate for having been granted the grab skill to begin with.
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Dec 29, 2023, 23:51 (UTC)
# 119
On: Dec 29, 2023, 15:17 (UTC), Written by Cleezus
Grabbing is the most powerful of the status ailments, and since there are so many variables due to it, the intention is to make sure to control this part.
There goes that false argument that grabs aren't one of the most powerful cc moves in PvP. The denial on that was crazy
You're behaving like you've already won this entire argument just because the devs threw a Diogenes shidpost up on the TEST announcements. Meanwhile everyone else is going to remember this as the most spectacular Self-Own in this game's PvP history
Last Edit :
Dec 30, 2023, 00:05 (UTC)
# 120
On: Dec 29, 2023, 23:51 (UTC), Written by Illrep3
You're behaving like you've already won this entire argument just because the devs threw a Diogenes shidpost up on the TEST announcements. Meanwhile everyone else is going to remember this as the most spectacular Self-Own in this game's PvP history
It is already a win in itself to have the developer confirm what so many grab bots were in denial of, saying that grab wasn't that decisive and skill still prevailed (nonsense), which was of course false and now we see the developer at least admitting it so that is a very important milestone in the history of this game as far as pvp is concerned.
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