I think assuming classes and people only do well because they have a grab does a few things:

1. Makes people upset because your assumption. Skill is skill no matter what tools you use.

2. Makes you really look bad because there is no way possible you could ever prove what you are saying is true.

3. Makes people question just how actually good at sorc you are if you are getting grabbed over and over. Your kills are impressive for sure, but I mean, grabs are the only thing holding your class back from curbstomping the competition into the ground, so it kinda makes me think you just want your class to do well and forget any other class.

I could be wrong, but a long time ago they nerf'ed grabs right with the understanding that nerfing grabs would also mean they would take away classes that could stay perminantly protected. As you can see, they did nerf grabs but there are still classes (COUGH COUGH) that can stay perminantly protected (iframe superarmor rotations) whilst attacking lol

I'd love to see you play a grab class against a good sorc. If you tag one, can you post a VOD here for us to see? I know some really good sorc players for you to test out the low skill grabs on.

Nah, let the skill-less wannabe chest-thumping PvPers of BDO have the only populated venue where they can pretend they are good at PvP. An overwhelming number of PvPers, not only from purely skill-based games but also from pseudo-skill-based PvP games, would likely view the BDO PvP scene with disdain. Why even bother with PvP in an action combat MMO where skill is overshadowed by major RNG (Random Number Generation), wallet power, and class power differences?

Even the overwhelming majority of MMO gamers will probably see the combat system and primarily use BDO as a PvE (Player vs Environment) game. After all, BDO is, in fact, about 85% or more PvE-oriented and has a minimal, unsupported PvP aspect. Sometimes, I wish someone could create a fully moddable RPG with BDO's combat mechanics, visual theme, and fidelity, complete with comprehensive AI integration.

But anyway, I digress. Good luck and have fun.

Ty for your post!

1) You are right, it is in part intentional though. I try to get them emotional about their grabs and incentivize a gut-reply from them, and then either two things happen, the either come up with a good reply that I had not considered, or they end up showing why I was right all along. <-- this here is no exception! ^^

2) It is heavily dependent on the developer. Other means of proving it would be to play many matches where the grab class agrees to not use grab.... yes it is very difficult to set up. No doubt about it. For now it remains just a mere suposition based on observation.

3) Well I don't want to make this topic about me but to adress this briefly: I can play around grabs too, some people assume that anyone that complains about grabs doesn't know how to play around them. I think any experienced pvper knows how to play around grabs, really the only way to play around them: stay out of its range and don't use prolonged animations EVER! its simple but highly stupid too, because when only one side has the grab then you have the case where the side without the grab is constanly having to play 5-D chess while the other side gets to relax and just wait around for a long animation while rotating SA's. The problem is effort and skill isn't balanced here and that's what I seek for the developer to address, no one should have an easier time in pvp because of the class they reroll to.

Sorcs arent even the class that suffers the most from being grabbed thanks to the iframe, so I dont see how grab removal from all would change too much. grab adition however, would put us on par with ninja/kuno/lahn, which would be fair in the least unless you want to discuss how they should have their grabs removed so that sorc doesn't deserve one either. At preset, for any class you can find with a grab, I can name you a class with similar abilities but that lacks a grab; indicating that there is no longer any criteria for the developer regarding who is granted a grab and who isn't.

I also agree that there are too many iframe/sa in this game, but that's probably something for another topic. I'll just say that IMHO they should remove ALL protections from ALL CC'S, and far reduce the number of CC's.

Also, the nerfs to grab are basically a slap on the wrist for a skill that is so powerful to begin with. they increased their CD but what is that good for when a grab still has a lower CD than a building up BSR and still remains far more influential to the outcome of the match than BSR or an ultimate buff would.

And I already know the matchups, I'd just pick something like warrior/striker/mystic to counter the sorc and be in SA waiting for the sorc to use a prolonged animation so I can grab=win. ofc a good sorc wont give u that chance so all you have to do is run her out of stamina, which is very easy to do if you just play very opressive while making sure u dont expose too many of your gaps. I could go into much more detail of the dynamics of this matchup but it is probably unnecessary since most already know it. There are other classes that can go more toe-to-toe against sorc like ninja/kuno, only to end up winning through a grab; but against something like warrior/striker/mystic,  basically the sorc can't do a lot unless the other side messes up, the matchup doesn't depend that much on what the sorc does but what the enemy does, and this strategy would not be as favorable were it not for the grab, then the warrior would not just have the luxury to go into relax mode whenever it wants but will have to also play reactive, instead of having all the initiative thanks to the grab-skill. That is the main reason why grab is a problem.

So apparrently having a discussion, counter-arguing is "bullying"? Got it. 

Look I dont what two braincells people are rubbing together to think everyclass needs a grab when you mfs cant even tell the difference between a real maegu, a clone. Now you want a class like sorc, maegu to have a grab...? Oh i cant wait to see HOW that would go besides the forum burning to the ground people begging for nerfs to maegu (Again) 

The game has had sorcs with grabs for many years, they are called kuno/ninja/lahn. The problem presently is that 2/3 of all classes have the grab-skill. Therefore, the end-game strategy here is indeed to have everyone get a grab-skill for their class so that then everyone realizes how dumb grab-skills are and then everyone agrees that grabs should be removed entirely. You can't just tell people how stupid a win-mechanic like grab is, you have to force them to experience it themselves to make them come to that realization!

What are you talking about?  Look at the name calling and personal attacks which were brought into server chat.  Not helpful.

The primary problem I see with this post is the lack of a consideration as to what actually makes a grab strong, or in some cases necessary, and in all cases, balanced. Grabs, in of themselves, (with exceptions of course) are generally not OP.

They are typically commital, long cooldown, medium-long animation skills that demand quick decision making regarding positioning both before hand and afterward.

There are a few things that make any grab in particular strong;

-Animation Length (Startup, Duration, Endlag)

-Applied CC (Bound, Float, KD)

-Surrounding Mobility

-Function of Follow-ups (Protection, Damage, Animation Length & any cancels)

-Cooldown

-Range

Many of the grabs in the game have some fault to them, some have multiple of these faults while excelling in a particular way, but most of the grabs in the game following this trend are balanced. The important take-away from what I'm trying to say here is that

A grab is only as strong as its fundamental function and the skills that surround it.

As a few examples, let's look at some specific classes grabs and see what of the above qualities they have.

Warrior's grab, "Take Down," has:

-A relatively Short Animation

-A bound CC

-Multiple skills surrounding advantageous positioning tools

-A large amount of cancel opportunities in follow up skills, but not all skills you would follow up with are SA; Ideal combos are not fully protected.

-A 15 second cooldown; minimum, but also standard
-Ordinary grab range

In this case, At least in my opinion, I think Warrior's Grab is balanced, and the only things I would change to Warrior's kit would not have to do with the grab, but the skills surrounding it, specifically removing the Increase Grip passive from Warrior (And all classes that have it mind you).

Next, let's look at Guardian's Grab, "Chokeslam," which has:

-A longer animation

-A KD CC (with optional bound but nobody really uses that)

-Only a few surrounding fast mobility tools, typically on long animations / cooldowns

-Long animation but high damage & often protected follow-up skills

-A 15 second cooldown; minimum, but also standard

-Ordinary grab range

In this case, Guardian's grab can be seen as either Strong or Weak, depending on the situation, but I would argue it's more often Weak due to its both its own long animation, and the even longer animations of the skills that would follow them up, leaving the guardian relatively open to Counter-CCs or incapable of finishing off their target in group PVP environments.

Next, a look at Tamer's Grab, "Soaring Kick," Which has:

-A fast animation, one of the fastest in the game

-A Float CC

-Multiple very fast positioning tools

-Quick animation skills that are typically forward guard or unprotected

-A 15 second cooldown; minimum, but also standard

-Ordinary grab range

In this case, while Tamer's grab is one of the fastest in the game, that doesn't necessarily make it strong, because the skills she has to follow up with do not allow her to properly combo in the context of fights of any scale larger than 1v1.

Next (and I promise I'm not biased this is just a VERY GOOD and VERY CONVENIENT EXAMPLE for my point :))))))!!!!!!!!!!!!)
....Let's look at Wizard's Grab, "Flame Knot." This grab has:

-A long animation

-A bound CC

-Limited, commital positioning tools

-Long, high damage and accuracy follow up skills

-A 15 second cooldown; minimum, but also standard

-Ordinary grab range

I don't think this needs to be said, but if you get grabbed by a Wizard, you're doing something very wrong.

Wizard's Grab is, and for the longest time, has been the worst grab in the game, with very little competition. Once upon a time Corsair's grab was considered as bad or worse, but then they fixed it, so Wizard's grab went back to being the worst, and continues to be a great example (and essentially the crux of my argument), That A grab is only as strong as the kit that surrounds it, and perhaps is justified in being as strong as it is by the other things that are (or aren't) in the kit.

Now, I don't exactly have the time or energy to Index & Analyze every grab in the game, but you should more or less see my point & should be able to intuit why some grabs on other classes are similarly balanced, or contrastly unbalanced.

As others have mentioned & argued, It's very hard to justify giving a grab (or keeping a grab) on certain classes, as they already have so many tools at their disposal, be it Ranged CCs, Quick / Low Cooldown Mobility Skills, or External Utility such as Group Buffs / Heals / Both.

For sake of argument, let's take a look at what would happen if you gave Sorcress a grab. Let's even make the grab (functionally) as bad as Wizard's!

You would end up with a grab with:

-A Slow animation

-A Bound CC

-A diverse set of surrounding Invincible or Super Armor positioning tools, all with very short / limited cooldowns

-A large amount of protected/ranged/AOE follow up damage and CCs, often with the ability to be canceled / flowed into the aforementiond invicibility movement tools

-A 15 second cooldown, minimum but also standard, (Some might even argue too short!)

-Ordinary Grab Range

There are many other classes that don't need / deserve Grabs in the context of their kits, and in my opinion, Sorcress is one of them.

This does not however, mean that there is no way to buff Sorcress, or that giving her a grab is the only way to buff her, (if she actually needs one that is.)

I think the better approach to this scenario is, as basically everyone else in the community suggested, Tune down the exceptions, and buff the weaker outliers in this particular problem. In my opinion, alot of the time people look at problems in BDO & approach them from far too narrow a viewpoint, leading to other problems cropping up due to the lack of consideration for external but related factors. The Karma system being one example, Arena of Solare being another, Crystal Breakage being another! I could continue.

Anyway that's my thoughts feel free to post "Too long, didn't read, anyway you're a dumbass and that's my entire argument."

:)

one might also say if u give sorc a grab give other classes sorcs capability to perma reposition safetly in immediate vincinity, survive and persist etc.

not every class should have grab to begin with and one could argue that some classes that DO have it now shouldnt have it.

for starters, this should be done with grabs:
no grab should KD

no grab should have ignore resist

no class should have more than 1 grab

no grab should hold target in V escape mode

Ty for your very detailed post!

I think your post is very well put together and does a good job in listing how one grab-skill is different from another grab-skill; however, I must point out that for the entirety of your post you fail to address the most important attribute that makes the grab-skill the strongest of all CC's to begin with, which is that:

-grab-skills override Super Armor and Forward Guard

Your analysis seems to try to compare grab-skills to normal CC's to proceed to make the point that they are comparatively not that much superior in comparison; but that is only true when you ignore the fact that grab-skills override any protections from SA and FG and thus this comparison becomes meaningless since grabs are in their own league above all other CC's by this mere fact. Thus, the subsequent examples you present, while well researched and organized, becomes irrelevant to proving that grab-skills aren't overpowered because you fail to consider that, unlike any other CC, the grab will indeed go through SA and FG.

As a side note, I also think that the words you use to categorize each casting speed of each animation for your examples is highly relative and subjective in the way you present them and can be misleading as to how extremely fast and not reactable to this still is. To avoid that it would have perhaps been more useful to talk about the frames it takes to cast divided by FPS of the sampled environment, and use this ratio to compare them, but I realize this would have taken much more work but still, if you are going to use this as such a relevant criteria for comparison then you definitely want to present very hard objective evidence here.

Just to quickly point out that sorc is no concern to me in either direction the buff goes, I am used to playing in either situation; what I claim to be fair is that if some classes have a grab-skill for no reason or criteria at all (which is clearly the case at present) then every class should have a grab. The much more preferred option is that no class should have a grab-skill because none deserve it nor need it, but realistically speaking that is less likely to occur than the former. For me personally, I claim that NO CLASS AT ALL DESERVES THE GRAB SKILL. I do not want a grab for my class nor anyone else's class unless and only unless other classes have it, in such a case then either every class should get a grab-skill for their kit or none should. It has to be zero-sum across all classes when it comes to the distribution of a skill as powerful as the grab-skill, which overrides everything.

I actually read every bit and appreciate your constrictive tone! ty for the exchange of ideas! :)