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UTC 7 : 25 May 15, 2024
CEST 9 : 25 May 15, 2024
PDT 0 : 25 May 15, 2024
EDT 3 : 25 May 15, 2024
Two grab classes and one non-grab class are asked to vote on who gets a grab-skill.
Jan 5, 2024, 19:08 (UTC)
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Last Edit : Jan 14, 2024, 04:36 (UTC)
# 81
On: Jan 5, 2024, 20:42 (UTC), Written by ComradeCat

Why are there no ways to counter a grab? In every other fighting game you can tech it or counter it because you have to balance them. 

yeah they exist, I present them to you: they are called "iframes" xd

Last Edit : Jan 14, 2024, 07:49 (UTC)
# 82
On: Jan 14, 2024, 04:36 (UTC), Written by hopelite
On: Jan 5, 2024, 20:42 (UTC), Written by ComradeCat

Why are there no ways to counter a grab? In every other fighting game you can tech it or counter it because you have to balance them. 

yeah they exist, I present them to you: they are called "iframes" xd

This was already debunked multiple times over; see quote below:

On: Jan 4, 2024, 10:54 (UTC), Written by A72391

lol, no. Iframe counters a grab in the same way you would counter a racing car coming at u at 150mph while you had your legs tied up and could only jump around. Notice that in either case, be it the grab attempt or the attmept to dodge the racing car, in neither case there is any punishment for the aggressor (the grab user or the car driver) for missing, in the slight chance it misses (hence why grabs are low-risk/high-reward and counter everything while having no counter). Calling iframe a counter to grab is therefore idiotic given that 5-10 frames out of 60FPS (the time range it takes to cast a grab) is hardly humanly-reactable to and more in the realm of pure chance.

You know what would really be an actual counter to grab? Something like grab having a full 1.5 seconds of casting time and if the grabee reacts within that timeframe then the grabber gets knocked down and punished for having had their grab countered. Contrary to what you suggest, where if the grab misses it's just "oops, wait for grab cooldown and try again." The latter is exactly how it is presently and why grab is the lowest risk and highest reward skill, and why it needs to be abolished from the game or in the least given to every class to make the unfairness evenly distributed.

Last Edit : Jan 14, 2024, 08:03 (UTC)
# 83

i-frame>Grabs.

Never had those problems described by OP.

But if it's possible to get grabbed in V, I believe there's some kind of a game bug. Idk.

Last Edit : Jan 14, 2024, 11:03 (UTC)
# 84
On: Jan 11, 2024, 18:12 (UTC), Written by A72391

From my very prolonged experience in pvp, I can confidently say that there is presently not a single class duo (the succ/awa alternative) in bdo that needs the grab, and I can prove this too: Anyone name me a class you think would become useless without the win-mechanic that is the grab-skill, and I will point out to you their strengths and I will even add in a class that is forced to play like that on top of not having a grab-skill at all.

Awa Lahn (since she looses against zerk, mystic, striker, dk, kuno, ninja,valk, musa, Maehwa, hash...basically 80% of the classes) since she doesn't have enough damage(everyone keeps saying S duelist but I think she's A.....haven't seen that many in the OwPvP...maybe Ham but succ lahn and nw only) to give after her grab(going from full rotation to CD and zerk is still having 50% HP with same gear while dk can use only 2-3 skills) and a very long CD on her movement skills(which should be lower) since Lahn is more like an assassin (get in and get out like Kuno and Ninja but Lahn is get in and stay there). 2 dashes with like 3s CD for me is not mobility (because in those 3s all the other classes basically kill the squishy) since musa/.Maehwa  have "infinite" dashes or i-frames(which the max are like 6-7 because of stamina consumption) like sorceress. Succ Lahn (good PvE but not so good at duels....like at all unless the other player is lower geared) only good in nw.

10 105
Lv Private
EeekAakEek
Last Edit : Jan 14, 2024, 11:17 (UTC)
# 85
On: Jan 5, 2024, 19:08 (UTC), Written by A72391

#1 BDO ranking highest kill-count in the world here. Enough about me.

This is with respect to the recently proposed changes in the Lab Server.

Presently, about 2/3 of the classes have a grab. For those that forgot their basic math this equivalently means that only 1/3 of the bdo classes do not have a grab. That's 66.66% vs. 33.33% respectively.

By the developer submitting to a mere popularity contest if whether or not every class should have a grab (option 3), it is unknowingly and unfairly asking a population of 3 members in which 2 are wolves and 1 is a sheep, to vote on what/who to have for dinner. The two wolves obviously will vote to eat the sheep and will win the election since the sheep has only one vote it can cast; In an ironically equal mathematical scenario, 2/3 of all BDO classes have a grab, and thusly are likely to dismiss option 3, which would help 1/3 of the BDO classes; the problem exacerbates itself because in practice, players realize the strenght that having a grab brings and so more will end up picking a class with a grab, and thus further increase the membership on the 2/3 side and leaving the 1/3 of grabless classes with even less representation in the election.

It is commendable for the developer to have stated that "Grabbing is the most powerful of the status ailments." Excellent point to begin making some progress from. Now that we recognize how dominant this skill is, it is time to act on that notion.


The developer has recently stated that option 2 seems to be leading in popularity. While I think that is a very great option, it still won't account for the fact that grab will remain a win-button, because it will still override any FG in spite of there being fewer SA's with option 2 (as if grabs respected SA to begin with). I am of the opinion that no class should have a grab, since it simplifies pvp too much; but I already made an essay on why grab skills are an abomination in fair pvp and debunk every counterargument in my essay on the matter which you can read here:
1) There is no excuse for a skill as powerful as BDO's grab to exist in any game and I will prove it
2) (extra) Grabs are a win button and have ruined PVP for far too long

The developer has recognized the extreme power of grabbing, it is time to bring a solution to the table.

Option 1 makes gaps shorter and adds means to counter them in pvp. Grabs still go through everything and thus this option doesn't address the problems that grabs will reign even more so over everything.

Option 2 increases FG at the expense of SA but this is irrelevant to any class with a grab. Thus classes with grabs will still have an easy time.

Option 3 is the only option presented by the developer that actually proposes spreading equality by means of everyone getting a grab, and for some cases compensating their other abilities.

This is why in my opinion the only one of the 3 options that brings us closer to fairness is #3, even though the existence of the grab skill is idiotic and should have never existed. But I am also aware that it is unlikely that they will remove grabs so the only possible alternative is to at least make it fair by everyone having one. Yes, grab dumbs down pvp, that is uncontroversial; but unfortunately it's either some classes have it or all do, the selection to me is a no-brainer.

If the developer does add as an option to removing grabs entirely, or making them respect the protection of Forward Guard, then I agree that option #2 is the best. But as things are right now, the best option for class fairness is #3.

Again, all the reason why grab is a win-button in BDO and shouldn't exist are completely covered in my essay which you can find the link in the previous lines; it also includes a full-debunking of all pro-grab arguments. This thread is just to bring to the attention of the developer that their current popularity contest is not a good mean for under-represented classes to have their voices heard. Opposition to this observation is also expected to be identically distributed as described by the ratios mentioned in this topic, precisely due to the under-representation of non-grab classes. Thus, if this battle is going to be won, it won't be by popular vote but from well constructed arguments and evidence; which once again can be found in my essay post.

With that being said... :)

Overall adding grab to other classes was not bad idea , but they have to change Grab 'example' cant grab Front guard or Super Arm . Simple example of Warrior he just stand on block and grab enemy when they come by even on protected skill , if grabs work same as CC we no longer need grab for other classes and overall grab abusing classes need to learn pvp again :) 

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Fochy
Last Edit : Jan 14, 2024, 16:42 (UTC)
# 86
On: Jan 14, 2024, 07:36 (UTC), Written by A72391

This was already debunked multiple times over; see quote below:

How many times will we need to repeat ourselves?

You're unable to debunk anything, above all the fact that Iframe counters grabs. In fact, Iframe counters everything, and make other classes blow up their CD, their damages, their CC, into the void.

That's the idea, people are trying to bait and predict Iframes as much as they're trying to bait and predict the rest, grabs included. But hey, double standards are deeply rooted into you, apparently.

Come back when you'll have a real way to debunk the fact that Iframe counters grabs. Until then, you're simply wrong, but your bad faith will strike again, right? XD

Last Edit : Jan 14, 2024, 18:42 (UTC)
# 87
On: Jan 14, 2024, 16:42 (UTC), Written by Sadalsuud

How many times will we need to repeat ourselves?

You're unable to debunk anything, above all the fact that Iframe counters grabs. In fact, Iframe counters everything, and make other classes blow up their CD, their damages, their CC, into the void.

That's the idea, people are trying to bait and predict Iframes as much as they're trying to bait and predict the rest, grabs included. But hey, double standards are deeply rooted into you, apparently.

Come back when you'll have a real way to debunk the fact that Iframe counters grabs. Until then, you're simply wrong, but your bad faith will strike again, right? XD

What about the classes that don't have grabs and have less I-Frames and protected movement than the classes that do have grabs? That's where you group's fallacy gets put on display for all to see. 

However since PA turned BDO balance into a popularity contest. People like yourselves that get granted free win mechanics against other classes. Have very little, if anything to worry about. 

Last Edit : Jan 15, 2024, 08:06 (UTC)
# 88
On: Jan 14, 2024, 18:42 (UTC), Written by EgoAdAstra

What about the classes that don't have grabs and have less I-Frames and protected movement than the classes that do have grabs? That's where you group's fallacy gets put on display for all to see. 

However since PA turned BDO balance into a popularity contest. People like yourselves that get granted free win mechanics against other classes. Have very little, if anything to worry about. 

My group's fallacies? XD

Well, it seems that you're part of "our group", since we are simply defending the idea that grab is not the root of all problems. 

But as you mentioned, the lack or excess or protected movements can also cause balance issues. As it has been said many times, there are many components in the balance, movement, protection, range, CC, heal, mouse movement and so on. Classes accumulating too many strengths are the real issue. 

Last Edit : Jan 16, 2024, 15:46 (UTC)
# 89

give Shai a grab 

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