I feel like the people who argue about how the game is so much better without any recourse to people trying to push you out of your spot either grossly exagurate their experience with people flagging on them or are the exact problem that recourse is used against.  There's no way every PVE only player is getting flagged on every 5 minutes like they seem to suggest.  I only need 1 hand to count the number of times someone has flagged on me in the past 6 years.  There's always outliers of course, and streamers are actively targetted fairly regularly, but those can be shut down easily by PA just moderating their players.  Something they've historically been neglegant with.  Quite frankly, the only change that had any sort of meaning in removing greifing instead of just changing its form was the removal of the black robe functionality.  The rest were just poorly thought out reactional changes that have just made some of their longest players outright leave.  Meanwhile, griefers still grief'n.

Not at all.  My guild was perma decced by a stalker who hunted me across servers nearly every night.  I think that sort of behavior was the primary reason for these changes.  ALthough I am grateful that my stalker now goes red and loses crystals for bothering me, I wish PA had simply deleted accounts doing this sort of things instead.  Sadly, such behavior resulted in more drastic changes than were needed.

This is exactly what I'm saying though.  PA is punishing the playerbase for the actions of the few who they've completely failed to regulate.  The average person playing this game is not being followed around and griefed.  They will occasionally run into someone who flags on them, and back in the day dfs and what not was certainly common in areas like orcs and what not, but none of that is particularly bad.  If anything, its where a lot of the content in the game came from as sometimes you'd get people who don't like dfs results or the gvg popping up to defend your grinder and what not.  All of that is gone now, just cause PA doesn't want to take responsibility.

You're not ruining the game for simply being present.  It's because of PA making wide-sweeping, IMO over the top, changes to cater to your specific segment of the playerbase (casuals).  Myself and others have posted here ad nauseum about how the changes were too drastic, too broad, too wide-sweeping (wide seeping means it affects EVERYONE, not just the group changes are meant to cater to) and expalined why and gave alternate solutions -- solutions that are more targeted, directed, and specifically address how casuals are negatively affected.

What's "funny" is that PK has a penalty that you're ignoring.  When you're randomly PK'd, the PK'r loses Karma whereas you lose literally nothing aside from whatever elixer you were running.  In comparison, that's such a miniscule thing, considering dying while negative Karma can result in degrading gear.  Imagine degrading a PEN Blackstar to TET -- that's over 120 billion silver -- 120 hours of grind if you make 1 bil and hour, which is already on the higher end of income.  So more hours of grind if you're making 800m.  Also, you can swap server.  Also, you can stick to Marni Realm.  Also, PA could have reworked Karma to be more punishing.  If your guild is perma dec'd and being stalked like Columba's example above?  Then they could have made unwanted decs automatically cancel after a certain amount of time.  Hello?  So many things.  And you choose to boil it down to oversimplification. 

Again, no one is saying the old system was perfect.  People have made suggestions to improve it -- including myself -- that keeps the spirit of the game alive.  That spirit being PVX open world.  Now, with the current changes, the open world is virtually PVE only.  PVX players relegated to a lawless channel, where those who enjoyed PVX with rules have nowhere to enjoy this style of play anymore.  There's core things that PVX with rules brings that lawless PVX doesn't, and things that pure PVE doesn't.  Things that make the game feel alive, meaningful, and social.  Those things are dead.  And it was due to stupid changes made to cater to casuals.  If SMART changes were made to cater to casuals, we wouldn't have a problem.

Agreed.  And it's funny how some players will blame other players for the changes.  Stuff like "your toxicity led to these changes, you need to blame yourself".  When the otus is on PA -- no one else -- the ensure that smart changes are made.  They're the dang developers, for crying out loud.  They get blame shifted away from them and rather have players infight amongst each other like American politics -- when THEY are the root of the problem and deserve ALL the blame for their lacking ability to properly manage and develop their game.  Look at War of Roses KR launch.  Players boycotted it and the launch was cancelled in KR.  The mode is only once every two weeks too, like, hello?  How stupid are you, PA -- what if players have work, school, or other time conflicts with this very specific timeframe?  SOL?  Yeah -- SOL right.  Good move.  Blame the player even more.

But new outfits?  Oh -- TONS of resources for that!!  But maybe this is good.  Silver lining -- I can focus more on IRL and improving myself and my life.  With my passion for BDO virtually gone, it makes making time for myself WAY easier.  SO thanks PA.  Actually, thank you.

I largely agree.  However, I am citing a different behavior, that in my experience was much more frequent- the use of deccs to bully and harass.  PA cited those behaviors specifically.  I think one sided decs ARE justified to deal with people messing with someone's rotations.  I don't think that there's any place for one sided deccs to hunt people down that you don't like and to prevent them from playing without consequences.  Sadly, PA could not separate the two.

If you want to avoid this situation, play on Arsha. That's literally the point of Arsha: to let you attack people without reprocussions. You even get a bonus to drop amount on those servers.

Standard servers have rules to prevent griefing, while allowing consensual PvP. If you don't like the rules, play on the servers without the rules.

Even yesterday, I've managed to find quite a bit of Open World PvP action on Arsha. The issue with those people, is that most of their prey of choice avoid the PvP channels. Therefore the wolves are left with hunting grounds that don't have much prey and an abundence of wolves like themselves. Remember they are looking for "PvP" and not good fun fights for both parties in mind. 

Another issue, was they were completely over hunting their prey to the point their prey stopped playing the game or in most cases disband guild. This was ultimately hurting PA's bottomline, so, here we are.

Don't let these people fool you. Open World PvP in BDO is far from dead should you want to fight against the other wolves.

Standard servers do not prevent all griefing, and ks is present on both standard servers and on Arsha.

And I chose this game for its owpvp with rules, Arsha has no rule. 

We don't want Arsha, we want owpvp with good rules, against all types of griefing and BDO used to have such a system at launch, it was simply giving too much power to killers, but another type of penalty could have easily replaced exp loss. But devs ruined the system they created. 

Nothing crazy about what we're asking for, it was even devs' initial concept at launch. 

I been thinking on this very subject for some time..

Not beating around the bush here as the example that Columba is using. But as in all things in life we learn and grow from experiences, Everyone learns differently.

Your parents tell you not to put your hand on the stove because it's hot.... As most of us that were kids some of us didn't listen and got burned... But as we got older we started to learn how to use a stove, pots , pans and how to cook. We learned where to put our hands and were not to. Even after all that there are some that just couldn't learn that is just the way life is.

Black desert is filled with learning.. In some cases that learning came with a certain amount of regret or indifference that being targeted has led them down a path where there is no more learning how to cook. It is simply I can't or won't be bothered to try.

PvP is one of these issues.... I like you have never been a target of harassment for years... Stalker or not, eventually my personality Aside would flip and I would become the thing that hunts me and become the hunter.. Other people are not like me. Be it Passive or just not strong enough and choose to give up and move on.. that or just deal with it in other ways.

Everyone handles every situation differently, some strive under stress others fold but the main thing to remember is that there is another person on the other side of that computer they are not an NPC...

 "One persons fun and Content can lead to another person's misery"

After 7 years of playing Black Desert being at End game and liking some classes and hating others i consider myself one of the better players in Black Desert online. That being said, getting wrecked by over tuned classes that take little to no brain power or those abusing specific class meta skills that make them overpowered and allow them to make everyone under them content is one major issue of the game.

Though we can Blame PA for the changes in game which as PeaceinChaose so eloquently put it, As a player base we also have to take responsibility for our own actions and as Americans in NA this game is full of Abuse.. be it game mechanics, Player Classes, NW or Siege Tactics, Use of Pots or Shai Buffs You name it the list goes on and on in a Quest for one player to dominate over another.

Just because you may not have witnessed it personally does not  mean that other players don't have valid points with their own personal issues.

Unfortunately embellished or not, I can put the blame squarely on the shoulders of those doing the stalking, Node camping, Zerging AND the leadership of those Guilds that are just as disgusting as the acts of their members.. Most of these guild leaders or officers don't even know the 1st damn thing about ethics or responsibility for personal behavior.. So how the hell do you expect a game developer to instill it in them let alone a Game developer that has its own ethics issues.

I get where All sides of this argument come from. It took a few months to get it.. But unfortunately this cycle of behavior and now mistreatment of the player base by a developer hell bent on asserting dominance over a particular group of players is not going to end well for anyone.

Those of us that are going to suffer are not those that are responsible for the current state of the game.. The few have spoken and continue to speak... Most of them are in the top siege guilds or players with end game gear that are taking it out on anyone they deem as the reason this game lost its core element. Good example is players using passive aggressive behaviour parking guild elephants on Heidel Rooftops just to irritate the RP'ers and care bears when a MAJORITY of them have less to do with the current state of the game than the PVP'ers themselves.

Taking it out on others like a child throwing a tantrum IS NOT THE WAY TO GET THE COMMUNITY TOGETHER.... there are a lot more red players now than before taking it out on specific players and groups.. Targeting Streamers that now have a very negative opinion of PVP like Blue Squadron is getting us literally nowhere and i for one am tired of it all.. As PeaceinChaos my time in BDO is rapidly coming to an end thanks to the out of control cycle of abuse and behavior between both the Developers and the playerbase.