PVE, PVP, Karma & The Systems Between
Apr 9, 2024, 01:34 (UTC)
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Last Edit :
Apr 11, 2024, 01:12 (UTC)
# 1
Family Name: Piag
Region (NA/EU): NA
Suggestions/Comments:
Last year, when all the Karma changes happened and Open world PVP was taken outback & killed old yeller style, I made a post similar to what I'm about to make now.
I don't feel like re-writing all the explanations of the systems, so I'm going to make this one shorter & more to-the-point.
BDO's Open world in both PVE and PVP is dead, and it's wack.
Last year, when the changes were proposed, I made a few predictions; Griefing would get worse, player interaction would go down, and the emphasis that BDO is a "Single Player MMO" would be further exacerbated. All 3 of those things happened almost exactly in that order! How fun. Cutting to the chase:
The Karma System Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Alot.
Let's set the stage: You are grinding Dekhia Hystria, by yourself, all peaceful like. Another player comes into your rotation and starts attacking your monsters, and stealing loot from them. You have the following options:
1) Ignore the player, and lose silver per hour because of the guy being a Nuisance
2) Kill the player, incurring negative karma detriments onto you (despite the fact you were there first)
3) Swap servers, in hope that one of the two locations on the server you're swapping to is open, wasting your buff durations.
In this situation, you as the guy that was there first loses in all 3 proposed "solutions" In some way or another, you lose something, and the other player only gains something, regardless of which option you choose.
1)If you ignore the player, then he gets to leech loot from your monsters for essentially no effort on his part.
2)If you kill the player, then the player gets to come back and (attempt) to kill you, risking your crystals and your time.
3)If you swap servers, then you give this other player the out to continue doing this behavior, and also have to hope the other server you're swapping to isn't also occupied.
How do we fix this? I have a few different ideas THAT WILL ONLY WORK IN TANDEM WITH EACHOTHER AND NOT ALONE.
1) Make Karma loss Calculated based on the highest gear the account of the player you are killing has.
Since karma is already family wide, why is your gear score not also family wide? This change benefits everybody;
The people who kill gearlets at low-end spots (PK-ers) lose just as much karma, and Karma-bombing is functionally removed from the game.
Everybody *except* the PK-er wins. Feeding people to monsters to risk their crystals is already gone, so there really isn't any argument against this anymore.
It's important to clarify the difference between a PK-er and an actual Red player. Most red players don't care about karma detriments currently, and probably still won't even if all my suggested changes go through. Only the people who want to grief gearlets will complain about these changes.
2) Increase the Maximum Positive Karma of a player to 500,000.
This helps the average person, who is genuinely defending their spot, keep their spot, as they have more leniency both in terms of how much karma they lose per kill (due to karma bombing not being a thing anymore,) and how much karma they can actually lose in the first place.
3) Make Karma Detriments scale with how negative the player is.
What this does is further help the average, innocent player in defending their spot in case somebody decides to push the issue in Griefing their grind.
Currently, there is no scaling to detriments when negative karma; How negative you are has no bearing as to how much you risk to lose.
A player with -10,000 Karma has to contend with the same detriments as a player who is -10,000,000 Karma. This is stupid.
Instead, I would suggest that Karma Detriments scale with how negative the player is. That would look like this:
Between -1 and -250,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-Chance of breaking 1 crystal (Instead of just guaranteed) Upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
-Guards and Players can attack you within Safezones
Between -250,001 and -500,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-All detriments from above, in addition to:
-Guarantee of breaking 1 crystal, chance of breaking 2 crystals Upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
-Food buffs now expire upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
Between -500,001 and -1,000,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-All detriments from above, in addition to:
-Guarantee of breaking 2 crystals, chance of breaking up to 4 crystals Upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
-Chance of 1 lightstone breaking upon death (Whether PVE or PVP)
Between -1,000,001 and -10,000,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-All detriments from above, in addition to:
-Alchemy Stones have their effects durations halved
-Chance of up to 2 lightstones breaking upon death (Whether PVE or PVP)
4) Finally, and most importantly; Allow us to Grind anywhere in the game with a party of up to 5 players.
What do I mean by this? It's pretty simple, really, and could be implemented in 2 ways:
1) Allow players to invite other players to their Marni Realm instance of the grindspot, utilizing the Marni realm in a new way
2) Allow players to invite other players to a party, and to kill monsters within the rotation they're at accordingly.
Now, the immediate problem with this is that players might kill the monsters too quickly, resulting in much higher revenue per hour, and quite easily overgrinding the grindzone. The simple solution I would propose is to Raise the maximum HP of the monsters Linearly as the party grows, with 30% more health per player.
The second immediate problem is that players have different aggro caps, which could lead to over-pulling multiple packs of monsters, and similarly overgrinding the grindzone. The solution I would suggest for this is similarly simple; Make the aggro cap for all players in the party shared across the 5 players, Unless it is mechanically conducive to allow otherwise (For example Altar Imps or Hexe Sanctuary, I think a higher cap would make sense there.)
This achieves multiple things at once:
1) People can grind any grindspot in the game, in a party of up to 5 players, making this an actual MMORPG again.
2) When attempting to contend with a grindspot, Players will have to bring similar party sizes in order to take the grindspot (provided they don't just gearcheck the entire party, but if this is the case, it's very likely that player will go into the Red, so it somewhat balances out)
3) It does away with the necessity of Duel For Spot Entirely, unless somebody is just trying to be rude for no reason.
Instead of players having to ask "How long do you have until this hour is done," they can instead ask "Hey, can I join your party for the remainder of your hour?"
The player that was already there has nothing to lose, and could even gain, depending on the class of the player that's asking to join; For example, nobody would complain about Shai buffs.
These are my thoughts as to how the game should be changed. If you are going to downvote, please at least explain why. If you are going to upvote, explain that as well.
Use your voice, if you think the game needs change, say what and why. That is all.
##Edit 1: Adjusted Karma Detriments to be more lenient - The goal here is not to kill the playstyle, and multiple people have explained how the initial proposed set of detriments would do exactly that.
Last year, when all the Karma changes happened and Open world PVP was taken outback & killed old yeller style, I made a post similar to what I'm about to make now.
I don't feel like re-writing all the explanations of the systems, so I'm going to make this one shorter & more to-the-point.
BDO's Open world in both PVE and PVP is dead, and it's wack.
Last year, when the changes were proposed, I made a few predictions; Griefing would get worse, player interaction would go down, and the emphasis that BDO is a "Single Player MMO" would be further exacerbated. All 3 of those things happened almost exactly in that order! How fun. Cutting to the chase:
The Karma System Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuucks. Alot.
Let's set the stage: You are grinding Dekhia Hystria, by yourself, all peaceful like. Another player comes into your rotation and starts attacking your monsters, and stealing loot from them. You have the following options:
1) Ignore the player, and lose silver per hour because of the guy being a Nuisance
2) Kill the player, incurring negative karma detriments onto you (despite the fact you were there first)
3) Swap servers, in hope that one of the two locations on the server you're swapping to is open, wasting your buff durations.
In this situation, you as the guy that was there first loses in all 3 proposed "solutions" In some way or another, you lose something, and the other player only gains something, regardless of which option you choose.
1)If you ignore the player, then he gets to leech loot from your monsters for essentially no effort on his part.
2)If you kill the player, then the player gets to come back and (attempt) to kill you, risking your crystals and your time.
3)If you swap servers, then you give this other player the out to continue doing this behavior, and also have to hope the other server you're swapping to isn't also occupied.
How do we fix this? I have a few different ideas THAT WILL ONLY WORK IN TANDEM WITH EACHOTHER AND NOT ALONE.
1) Make Karma loss Calculated based on the highest gear the account of the player you are killing has.
Since karma is already family wide, why is your gear score not also family wide? This change benefits everybody;
The people who kill gearlets at low-end spots (PK-ers) lose just as much karma, and Karma-bombing is functionally removed from the game.
Everybody *except* the PK-er wins. Feeding people to monsters to risk their crystals is already gone, so there really isn't any argument against this anymore.
It's important to clarify the difference between a PK-er and an actual Red player. Most red players don't care about karma detriments currently, and probably still won't even if all my suggested changes go through. Only the people who want to grief gearlets will complain about these changes.
2) Increase the Maximum Positive Karma of a player to 500,000.
This helps the average person, who is genuinely defending their spot, keep their spot, as they have more leniency both in terms of how much karma they lose per kill (due to karma bombing not being a thing anymore,) and how much karma they can actually lose in the first place.
3) Make Karma Detriments scale with how negative the player is.
What this does is further help the average, innocent player in defending their spot in case somebody decides to push the issue in Griefing their grind.
Currently, there is no scaling to detriments when negative karma; How negative you are has no bearing as to how much you risk to lose.
A player with -10,000 Karma has to contend with the same detriments as a player who is -10,000,000 Karma. This is stupid.
Instead, I would suggest that Karma Detriments scale with how negative the player is. That would look like this:
Between -1 and -250,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-Chance of breaking 1 crystal (Instead of just guaranteed) Upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
-Guards and Players can attack you within Safezones
Between -250,001 and -500,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-All detriments from above, in addition to:
-Guarantee of breaking 1 crystal, chance of breaking 2 crystals Upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
-Food buffs now expire upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
Between -500,001 and -1,000,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-All detriments from above, in addition to:
-Guarantee of breaking 2 crystals, chance of breaking up to 4 crystals Upon death (whether PVE or PVP)
-Chance of 1 lightstone breaking upon death (Whether PVE or PVP)
Between -1,000,001 and -10,000,000 Karma, the following detriments should be applied:
-All detriments from above, in addition to:
-Alchemy Stones have their effects durations halved
-Chance of up to 2 lightstones breaking upon death (Whether PVE or PVP)
4) Finally, and most importantly; Allow us to Grind anywhere in the game with a party of up to 5 players.
What do I mean by this? It's pretty simple, really, and could be implemented in 2 ways:
1) Allow players to invite other players to their Marni Realm instance of the grindspot, utilizing the Marni realm in a new way
2) Allow players to invite other players to a party, and to kill monsters within the rotation they're at accordingly.
Now, the immediate problem with this is that players might kill the monsters too quickly, resulting in much higher revenue per hour, and quite easily overgrinding the grindzone. The simple solution I would propose is to Raise the maximum HP of the monsters Linearly as the party grows, with 30% more health per player.
The second immediate problem is that players have different aggro caps, which could lead to over-pulling multiple packs of monsters, and similarly overgrinding the grindzone. The solution I would suggest for this is similarly simple; Make the aggro cap for all players in the party shared across the 5 players, Unless it is mechanically conducive to allow otherwise (For example Altar Imps or Hexe Sanctuary, I think a higher cap would make sense there.)
This achieves multiple things at once:
1) People can grind any grindspot in the game, in a party of up to 5 players, making this an actual MMORPG again.
2) When attempting to contend with a grindspot, Players will have to bring similar party sizes in order to take the grindspot (provided they don't just gearcheck the entire party, but if this is the case, it's very likely that player will go into the Red, so it somewhat balances out)
3) It does away with the necessity of Duel For Spot Entirely, unless somebody is just trying to be rude for no reason.
Instead of players having to ask "How long do you have until this hour is done," they can instead ask "Hey, can I join your party for the remainder of your hour?"
The player that was already there has nothing to lose, and could even gain, depending on the class of the player that's asking to join; For example, nobody would complain about Shai buffs.
These are my thoughts as to how the game should be changed. If you are going to downvote, please at least explain why. If you are going to upvote, explain that as well.
Use your voice, if you think the game needs change, say what and why. That is all.
##Edit 1: Adjusted Karma Detriments to be more lenient - The goal here is not to kill the playstyle, and multiple people have explained how the initial proposed set of detriments would do exactly that.
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 06:19 (UTC)
# 2
I had to come out of lurk mode just to tell you I upvoted this (& If I take the time to comment it means I really really liked your post or it's not an anti-social day for me LOL) Nonetheless, this was a great topic & I loved all your proposed ideas. However, I still think your ideas are too leinient towards negative karma and red players. They need to be PUNISHED to discourage the idea of "flagging up" or PK'ing. BDO should be generally just unplayable for them. Im talking your character level can downgrade if you lose enough XP( Once you are negative karma at all, you will lose 20% xp an hour, and will keep losing as long as you're negative). Your prime and awakening skills are locked upon reaching -250k karma +, and you're unable to use certain items and buffs along with all the other lovely things you mentioned above. I also want to add once a player is negative getting positive karma will be exponentially harder. Finally, removal of XP penalties while in a party should be removed, along with the inability to access the magnus or do the MSQ with partygoers. Make the game feel like a MMO not a Singleplayer Experience with Multiplayer Elements. Thank you once again for re-inspiring my hope Piag <3 PA please listen to your coummunity, we're all crying at this point
15
127
Lv Private
MINEARIA
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 07:54 (UTC)
# 3
Especially the group aspect has always been ridiculously dumb to me. It' a friggin MMORPG. We should be able to grind everything as party and not be penalized for that. The whole "griefing" aspect of the game ist just a problem they created themselves.
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 10:43 (UTC)
# 4
On: Apr 9, 2024, 06:19 (UTC), Written by katharinabluu
I had to come out of lurk mode just to tell you I upvoted this (& If I take the time to comment it means I really really liked your post or it's not an anti-social day for me LOL) Nonetheless, this was a great topic & I loved all your proposed ideas. However, I still think your ideas are too leinient towards negative karma and red players. They need to be PUNISHED to discourage the idea of "flagging up" or PK'ing. BDO should be generally just unplayable for them. Im talking your character level can downgrade if you lose enough XP( Once you are negative karma at all, you will lose 20% xp an hour, and will keep losing as long as you're negative). Your prime and awakening skills are locked upon reaching -250k karma +, and you're unable to use certain items and buffs along with all the other lovely things you mentioned above. I also want to add once a player is negative getting positive karma will be exponentially harder. Finally, removal of XP penalties while in a party should be removed, along with the inability to access the magnus or do the MSQ with partygoers. Make the game feel like a MMO not a Singleplayer Experience with Multiplayer Elements. Thank you once again for re-inspiring my hope Piag <3 PA please listen to your coummunity, we're all crying at this point
I dont agree with the XP loss the way you described, its way too insane; a red player would decrease a level every 5 hours? I think this is not necessary. I think flagging up should not be punished, as it might be necessary sometimes, but going way too negative should be.
We need a system that makes being perma-red unviable and undesirable. If a player decides to go red (well, they do have the right and its their choice), after a while they should need to move away from PK-ing to grind back some/all of their karma.
I think the tier system described in the OP is good, however, below x karma (-2 million maybe?) the player should start losing stats, like -10% for every -1 million karma (capping at -80% at -10 million). My reasoning: in the current system, perma red players have absolutely no incentive to stop PK-ing and regain their karma; if the maximum negative is -1 million or -10 million, will not matter at all for them. They use cheap crystals to protect their gear, they dont lose anything valuable on death, and they usually use end game PVP (evasion) gear, which cannot be countered by (not endgame) PVE geared players. This way the red players would not be able to grief endlessly, and they would need to move away form PK-ing for a while.
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 12:26 (UTC)
# 5
On: Apr 9, 2024, 06:19 (UTC), Written by katharinabluu
I had to come out of lurk mode just to tell you I upvoted this (& If I take the time to comment it means I really really liked your post or it's not an anti-social day for me LOL) Nonetheless, this was a great topic & I loved all your proposed ideas. However, I still think your ideas are too leinient towards negative karma and red players. They need to be PUNISHED to discourage the idea of "flagging up" or PK'ing. BDO should be generally just unplayable for them. Im talking your character level can downgrade if you lose enough XP( Once you are negative karma at all, you will lose 20% xp an hour, and will keep losing as long as you're negative). Your prime and awakening skills are locked upon reaching -250k karma +, and you're unable to use certain items and buffs along with all the other lovely things you mentioned above. I also want to add once a player is negative getting positive karma will be exponentially harder. Finally, removal of XP penalties while in a party should be removed, along with the inability to access the magnus or do the MSQ with partygoers. Make the game feel like a MMO not a Singleplayer Experience with Multiplayer Elements. Thank you once again for re-inspiring my hope Piag <3 PA please listen to your coummunity, we're all crying at this point
Why? What's the point? You're already heavily disincentivized from going red. Do you have PTSD from meeting a red or what?
1
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Lv 65
SHlNMEN_Takezo
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 12:33 (UTC)
# 6
I do and don't agree with this system as I do agree it should scale but things like this below are far too over the top.
> "-Players are rejected by the Magnus, incapable of fast traveling via wells"
I am red so I of course have bias in this department but to me playing red should involve risk not direct downsides in the way you described.
Things like stat loss and gear degradation (max dura) aren't really neccesary as red players already are directly losing stats and options via the playstyle.
The obvious things are crystals where sure we can protect our gear but we have to use really not great crystals that oftentimes leave us missing a large amount of stats leading us to have to use specialised builds that are great at one or two things but we can't generalise. Things like human damage outside of the occasoinal olucas are basically off limit to us as well as high tier accuracy crystals so many people are borderline unkillable and thats okay, in a gear balanced MMO it should be unfair that way.
We also lose access to features such as tagging in their entirey which already for alot of people is a no go.
Just to note we already do lose lightstones on death and when spawning node we do not spawn closest, we spawn in a random node in the nearby area (Including dying in Yzarid and ending up in the mountain of eternal winter).
Many of these discussions about "discouraging" are and aren't correct, punishing people griefing and abusing the karma system to stay blue while hurting other players is a wholely good thing for the game. But almost all of them face the same bias that "I don't like this playstyle so therefore we should nerf it into the ground" as opposed to actually giving more realistic concepts that risk certain things.
If your gripe is with people running evasion and griefing you that is not a gripe with red players and is simply something you haven't built against, and if you don't want to PvP that is an available option via Marni.
Many players that we do fight have enough accuracy at any half decent spot to crack open a 1350 evasion striker like an egg or ask us to come back to duel after they finish so they can swap to pvp addons to try and fight us.
It's a common misconception every red player is geared, we have people running evasion at 620gs that can't kill you but you cant kill them if you haven't built for it, when once again any half geared player meeting them will snap them on the spot.
It's very very often that ingame I have people ask to duel me even if I heavily outgear them because they want to try and fight me a bit and they know im open to that for my name colour, there are far more comments from people we speak too saying they don't get to PvP but wish they could more, changes like this leave no place for someone PvPing that isnt hardcap in RBF or living in Solare where your game progression doesn't matter.
Conclusion kinda
I do absolutely agree we need more group stuff in the game and a change to the karma system where it scales would absolutely be nice. Your proposed changes however, really don't read as more than "This playstyle annoys me and we should get rid of it" and are more just "Don't allow players to do this" rather than overly risking things.
> "I think flagging up should not be punished"
> "We need a system that makes being perma-red unviable"
This is just nonsense to have these two things together, and ultimately shows a heavy bias towards a general dislike of reds rather than any intent to actually aid the system. Reds are rare enough that I promise most of your issues are blue players griefing or going for a free kill if they want too and thats where the system needs changing.
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 13:12 (UTC)
# 7
On: Apr 9, 2024, 10:41 (UTC), Written by Ponge85
I dont agree with the XP loss the way you described, its way too insane; a red player would decrease a level every 5 hours? I think this is not necessary. I think flagging up should not be punished, as it might be necessary sometimes, but going way too negative should be.
We need a system that makes being perma-red unviable and undesirable. If a player decides to go red (well, they do have the right and its their choice), after a while they should need to move away from PK-ing to grind back some/all of their karma.
I think the tier system described in the OP is good, however, below x karma (-2 million maybe?) the player should start losing stats, like -10% for every -1 million karma (capping at -80% at -10 million). My reasoning: in the current system, perma red players have absolutely no incentive to stop PK-ing and regain their karma; if the maximum negative is -1 million or -10 million, will not matter at all for them. They use cheap crystals to protect their gear, they dont lose anything valuable on death, and they usually use end game PVP (evasion) gear, which cannot be countered by (not endgame) PVE geared players. This way the red players would not be able to grief endlessly, and they would need to move away form PK-ing for a while.
just a arbitrary number, but I just know this whole red/perma-red system is flawed and is in need of some serious improvements
15
127
Lv Private
MINEARIA
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 13:17 (UTC)
# 8
On: Apr 9, 2024, 12:26 (UTC), Written by Starfyre
Why? What's the point? You're already heavily disincentivized from going red. Do you have PTSD from meeting a red or what?
I want it to be even more, maybe its a bit much? Personally I never get PK'd these days, then again I barely grind as much as I used to. Its more to protect the newer players who lack the gear, experience and skill to defend themselves. Apologies if my previous statement was too egregious
15
127
Lv Private
MINEARIA
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 13:36 (UTC)
# 9
On: Apr 9, 2024, 12:33 (UTC), Written by Bantalope
Conclusion kinda
I do absolutely agree we need more group stuff in the game and a change to the karma system where it scales would absolutely be nice. Your proposed changes however, really don't read as more than "This playstyle annoys me and we should get rid of it" and are more just "Don't allow players to do this" rather than overly risking things.
> "I think flagging up should not be punished"
> "We need a system that makes being perma-red unviable"
This is just nonsense to have these two things together, and ultimately shows a heavy bias towards a general dislike of reds rather than any intent to actually aid the system. Reds are rare enough that I promise most of your issues are blue players griefing or going for a free kill if they want too and thats where the system needs changing.
I do actually want the Red playstyle to be a supported part of the game, and I think there should be more Red player towns across the map to do that, thank you for the response. Part of the idea for the detriments was to trade some of the risk inherent to gear degredation for simply more silver, since I personally believe gear degredation shouldn't exist in any MMORPG unless it's something you willingly engage in (i.e the enhancement system.)
Last Edit :
Apr 9, 2024, 13:53 (UTC)
# 10
On: Apr 9, 2024, 06:19 (UTC), Written by katharinabluu
I had to come out of lurk mode just to tell you I upvoted this (& If I take the time to comment it means I really really liked your post or it's not an anti-social day for me LOL) Nonetheless, this was a great topic & I loved all your proposed ideas. However, I still think your ideas are too leinient towards negative karma and red players. They need to be PUNISHED to discourage the idea of "flagging up" or PK'ing. BDO should be generally just unplayable for them. Im talking your character level can downgrade if you lose enough XP( Once you are negative karma at all, you will lose 20% xp an hour, and will keep losing as long as you're negative). Your prime and awakening skills are locked upon reaching -250k karma +, and you're unable to use certain items and buffs along with all the other lovely things you mentioned above. I also want to add once a player is negative getting positive karma will be exponentially harder. Finally, removal of XP penalties while in a party should be removed, along with the inability to access the magnus or do the MSQ with partygoers. Make the game feel like a MMO not a Singleplayer Experience with Multiplayer Elements. Thank you once again for re-inspiring my hope Piag <3 PA please listen to your coummunity, we're all crying at this point
I appreciate that you like the post, but I Do fully & fundamentally disagree with punishing red players as aggressively as this. You'll notice how I don't include gear degredation in the detriments for being negative, because I don't think that should exist in any game with this much of a time commitment to the gearing process. Losing levels is a pittance compared to that, but I don't think that should be a thing either. Progress should never be lost unless you yourself decide to make it happen. (Rouletting your gear or rerolling to a lower level class or what-have-you.)
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